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ISIS is repeating what Mohammed did a 1400 years back.

dust1n

Zindīq
C'mon, Dust1n, I know that you are not that dense. A book supposedly created by a divine being that is being used as a War Manual vs. a real manual, made by men?

Why do I care if someone carrying out a genocide thinks they are doing the work of God or the work of man? The Khmer Rouge killed somewhere between 1 & 3 million people... Ah, well at least they weren't arrogant enough to think of themselves as doing God's work...

And on the other hand, the very same book is the same divine being for thousands of people fighting ISIS...

So, no, I don't really understand why the contention is specifically the book...
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
What does that mean! practice their religion in secret?
they didn't do anything except practicing their religion and practicing Freedom of Religion
And ticking off the Christians, Pagans and Jews.... Jus' sayin'
 

RAYYAN

Proud Muslim
And ticking off the Christians, Pagans and Jews.... Jus' sayin'

Are we still talking about the battle mentioned in the verse or you already moved to another topic?
if you moved to another topic, please be specific so I can respond
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Are we still talking about the battle mentioned in the verse or you already moved to another topic?
if you moved to another topic, please be specific so I can respond
If you knew your early Islamic history, you should have no problem following me, LOL.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Why do I care if someone carrying out a genocide thinks they are doing the work of God or the work of man? The Khmer Rouge killed somewhere between 1 & 3 million people... Ah, well at least they weren't arrogant enough to think of themselves as doing God's work...

And on the other hand, the very same book is the same divine being for thousands of people fighting ISIS...

So, no, I don't really understand why the contention is specifically the book...
The highlighted part is the crux, Dust1n. Given that interpretations can vary so widely can be quite problematic.
The Pentagon novella would be a manual and not open to too much interpretation. It's a genuine manual.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
ok let's see, in this battle, Muslims were 314 fighters and the enemy was over 1000 strong.

1. Do Muslims really have a choice on where to hit the enemy like what the verse says while each person is fighting 3 of his enemies once? it is illogical that God commands Muslims to do this.

2. let's the message was to the Muslims, what is wrong with that! it is a battle field, are they suppose to give them flowers?

It seems to me that you're making my point for me here... isn't this just another way of agreeing with the OP?
 

RAYYAN

Proud Muslim
If you knew your early Islamic history, you should have no problem following me, LOL.

Oh, I know the history,
you in return, playing a game, it is pulling a teeth from you. state your statement and what you want to say clearly, have the honesty and man up.

Sir.
I can see you have 18K posts here, you must be a senior here, but guess what, I don't care. all I want is, be a man enough to post clear and full statement so I can debunk it instead your childish indirect insult that I don't know my History
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Oh, I know the history,
you in return, playing a game, it is pulling a teeth from you. state your statement and what you want to say clearly, have the honesty and man up.

Sir.
I can see you have 18K posts here, you must be a senior here, but guess what, I don't care. all I want is, be a man enough to post clear and full statement so I can debunk it instead your childish indirect insult that I don't know my History
If you knew your early Islamic history you would be fully aware that Muhammad continually preached to any who would listen that Jews had altered their holy books and that the Christians were wrong about Jesus and the Trinity. I shouldn't need to point out what he said and felt about the pagans in Mecca as his whirlwind trip to the Kaaba a few years after the battle above indicates the respect he had for the well established pagans in the region. All of these people slowly began to understand that this man was a clear and present danger to their way of life. My gut feeling is that, at first, they just thought he was crazy and so entertained his ideas... but then very slowly, he began to attract followers... and that got the Meccan's edgy enough to finally plot against him.

There were also the raids against the Meccan caravan's by the early Muslims. These acts hardly endeared them to the people of Mecca and it is little surprise that eventually they put together a force to deal with the Muslims... which didn't go very well...
 

dust1n

Zindīq
The highlighted part is the crux, Dust1n. Given that interpretations can vary so widely can be quite problematic.
The Pentagon novella would be a manual and not open to too much interpretation. It's a genuine manual.

I suppose. I mean, it just came out a couple months ago, and apparently lots of people saw lots of interpretations.

Put I take your point in stride. Obviously the general Field Manual for military operations is much more reasonable then say, ISIS's musing over what God wants them to do.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
What does that mean! practice their religion in secret?
they didn't do anything except practicing their religion and practicing Freedom of Religion

"Freedom of Religion" gets us to another sore point. Yes, yes, I know "there is no compunction..."

But what we see - in practice, in the world - is that inevitably, when Muslims become the majority in a population, all other religions are driven out. So it would appear from the last 1400 years that when a Muslim says "Freedom of Religion", it's fairly safe to assume that that translates to "Muslims want to be free to practice THEIR religion, and they'll work like crazy to stifle everyone else's religion"
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
then it seemed to you wrong dude.
however, cleverly avoided answering my question

I sincerely believe that the point of the OP was that ISIS is using the same *principles* and beliefs as Muhammad used. When you ask what should the Muslims have done, it seems to me that what you're saying is that they had every right to behead those 800 people. Did I misunderstand you?
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I sincerely believe that the point of the OP was that ISIS is using the same *principles* and beliefs as Muhammad used. When you ask what should the Muslims have done, it seems to me that what you're saying is that they had every right to behead those 800 people. Did I misunderstand you?
Well, Muhammad did demure and offloaded the decision to a former Jew who the offending Jews thought they could trust. I don't think they realized that they were about to get a crash course in religious fanaticism.... all the while Muhammad looked on approving and never lifted a finger to stop the festivities.
 

Unification

Well-Known Member
Isis is slaughtering and torturing Yazdies for their religious beliefs. Every other religions are their targets.
Mohammed too did the same -mercilessly butchered other then existing peaceful and more morally developed civilizations. Raped even kids. Many islamic countries say Isis is not muslim - but for me it is like saying "Prophet Mohammed" is not islamic.

Freedom of thought is suppreseed under islamic rules with a thousand restrictions and uncivilized and barbaric punishments.

Today i doubt - Did islam truly had a golden age? or did it stole the science and technology and arts from other civilizations and marketed as theirs?

If in the future and if their strategy works and the world is ultimately populated with muslims alone and a few hundred years after they achieve this "feat" - when things are as civilized as 400 AD, they would be claiming that they sent a man to the moon back in 1969.

The only difference is, Mohammed isn't real, and it's a story about any individual slaying anything not peaceable in the mind, murdering mind children(seeds) that have a stronghold over ones mind. The concept of Islam is an internal way of being, a peaceful mind. This occurs by the war going on within the mind, only the eradication of the negative mind babies(thoughts, desires, emotions, knowledge, etc.)

Isis members are performing just the opposite, externally and literally.

Those rules and conditions are man's rules and lower natured/lower minded laws, not what true Islam was meant for.
 
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Why would I think the three independent sources of penned by Muslim scholars, including the earliest known biography of Muhammad, all have some reason to misrepresent the killing of poets who opposed Muhammad?

One of whom was claimed to be 120 years old.

Do you think that sources that claims they killed a 120 year old might also be wrong in some other details of the events?
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
The only difference is, Mohammed isn't real, and it's a story about any individual slaying anything not peaceable in the mind, murdering mind children(seeds) that have a stronghold over ones mind. The concept of Islam is an internal way of being, a peaceful mind. This occurs by the war going on within the mind, only the eradication of the negative mind babies(thoughts, desires, emotions, knowledge, etc.)

Isis members are performing just the opposite, externally and literally.

Those rules and conditions are man's rules and lower natured/lower minded laws, not what true Islam was meant for.

I think if more Muslims believed that was the case and promoted such, many nonbelievers would like and respect Islam more. It's seen as a total way of life and governance, internally and externally, by the majority though. Amadhi Muslims tried promoting jihad is only internal and there should be no external jihad and they've been attacked ever since in Muslim majority countries...if not also banned or legislated against.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Hey you guys don't say anything against early Islamic religious history.
I especially dig those battles where 100 faithful Muslim warriors fought 40000 Roman/Sassanid/or both soldiers and slaughtered almost everyone of them. The survivors obviously converted to Islam afterwards.

Totally credible and not made up. Pinky promise.
 

DawudTalut

Peace be upon you.
Isis is slaughtering and torturing Yazdies for their religious beliefs.
According to the teaching of Holy Prophet of true Islam,
First of all, I say to you:
Peace be on you.

Then,
Anything like ISIS, Boku Haram, and any persecution on the name of religion is condemned, whenever and whoever it was done:
http://www.libertymagazine.org/article/in-the-name-of-heaven-3000-years-of-religious-persecutionIRS

Does ISIS know and practice Islam?
1=A French journalist's ISIS captors cared little about religion, Didier Francois -- who spent over 10 months as the group's prisoner in Syria -- told CNN's Christiane Amanpour in an exclusive interview on Tuesday.

"There was never really discussion about texts or -- it was not a religious discussion. It was a political discussion."
Source: ISIS captors cared little about religion, says former hostage - CNN.com


2= A German remained with terrorists:
He said he reminded the fighters that most chapters of the Koran began with the words "Allah... most merciful".
"I asked: Where is the mercy? I never got the real answer."
Source: BBC News - Rare Islamic State visit reveals 'brutal and strong' force


Every other religions are their targets.
No.......They are just robots, their target is 'to get oil' for others at the cost of human lives, while bring bad name to Islam.
Please use search words 'how isis created'.

Mohammed too did the same......
Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be on him), like Hazrat Moses (on whom be peace) and Hazrat Jesus (on whom be peace) came at the time when people had forgotten morals and peace.

Pringle Kennedy has observed (Arabian Society at the Time of Muhammad pp. 8-10, 18-21):

Muhammad was, to use a striking expression, the man of the hour. In order to understand his wonderful success, one must study the conditions of his times. Five and half centuries and more had elapsed when he was born since Jesus had come into the world. At that time, the old religions of Greece and Rome, and of the hundred and one states along the Mediterranean, had lost their vitality. In their place, Caesarism had come as a living cult. The worship of the state as personified by the reigning Caesar, such was the religion of the Roman Empire. Other religions might exist, it was true; but they had to permit this new cult by the side of them and predominant over them. But Caesarism failed to satisfy. The Eastern religions and superstitions (Egyptian, Syrian, and Persian) appealed to many, in the Roman world and found numerous votaries. The fatal fault of many of these creeds was that in many respects they were so ignoble.... When Christianity conquered Caesarism at the commencement of the fourth century, it, in its turn, became caesarised. No longer was it the pure creed, which had been taught some three centuries before. It had become largely de-spiritualized, ritualized, materialized....

How, in a few years, all this was changed, how, by 650 AD a great part of this world became a different world from what it had been before, is one of the most remarkable chapters in human history. This wonderful change followed, if it was not mainly caused by, the life of one man, the Prophet of Mecca. Whatever the opinion one may have of this extraordinary man, whether it be that of the devout Muslim who considers him the last and greatest herald of God’s word, or of the fanatical Christian of former days, who considered him an emissary of the Evil One, or of certain modern Orientalists, who look on him rather as a politician than a saint, as an organizer of Asia in general and Arabia in particular, against Europe, rather than as a religious reformer; there can be no difference as to the immensity of the effect which his life has had on the history of the world. To those of us, to whom the man is everything, the milieu but little, he is the supreme instance of what can be done by one man. Even others, who hold that the conditions of time and place, the surroundings of every sort, the capacity of receptivity of the human mind, have, more than an individual effort, brought about the great steps in the world’s history, cannot well deny, that even if this step were to come, without Muhammad, it would have been indefinitely delayed.

In the fifth and sixth centuries, the civilized world stood on the verge of chaos. The old emotional cultures that had made civilization possible, since they had given to man a sense of unity and of reverence for their rulers, had broken down and nothing had been found adequate to take their place.... It seemed then that the great civilization which had taken four thousand years to construct was on the verge of disintegration, and that mankind was likely to return to that condition of barbarism where every tribe and sect was against the next, and law and order were unknown.... The new sanctions created by Christianity were creating divisions and destruction instead of unity and order. Civilization like a gigantic tree whose foliage had over-reached the world stood tottering, rotted to the core. Was there any emotional culture that could be brought in to gather mankind once more to unity and to save civilization? It was among the Arabs that the man was born who were to unite the whole known world of the east and south (J. H. Denison, Emotions as the Basis of Civilization, pp. 265-9).

Muhammad appeared on the scene at one of the darkest periods in all history, when all the civilizations, from Merovingian Gaul to India, were falling to ruin or were in a state of troubled gestation (L. Dermenghem, The Life of Muhammad, p. 171).

If the object of religion be the inculcation of morals, the diminution of evil, the promotion of human happiness, the expansion of the human intellect, if the performance of good works will avail in the great day when mankind shall be summoned to its final reckoning, it is neither irreverent nor unreasonable to admit that Muhammad was indeed an Apostle of God (S. P. Scott, History of the Moorish Empire in Europe, p. 126).

Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may ask, is there any man greater than he? (Lamartine, History of Turkey, p. 276).

The more one reflects on the history of Muhammad and of early Islam, the more one is amazed at the vastness of his achievement. Circumstances presented him with an opportunity such as few men have had, but the man was fully matched with the hour. Had it not been for his gifts as seer, statesman, and administrator and, behind these his trust in God and firm belief that God had sent him, a notable chapter in the history of mankind would have remained unwritten (W. Montgomery Watt, Muhammad at Medina, p. 336).

The condition of the world at the time of the advent of Muhammad has been summed up in the Holy Quran as: ‘Corruption has appeared on land and sea in consequence of people’s misdeeds’ (30:42).

Ref:https://www.alislam.org/library/books/muhammad_seal_of_the_prophets/introduction.html


Thus,like previous Prophets, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) came to end atrocities.


Many islamic countries say Isis is not muslim - but for me it is like saying "Prophet Mohammed" is not islamic.

The period of the Crusades, when the fictional Mahound was established, was also a time of the great strain and denial in Europe. This is graphically expressed in the phobia about Islam.
(Muhammad: A Biography of the Prophet, page 27.....KAREN ARMSTRONG).


The Holy Prophet Muhammad
saw.gif
in the Eyes of Non-Muslims
@https://www.alislam.org/library/links/eyes.html




Freedom of thought is suppreseed under islamic rules with a thousand restrictions and uncivilized and barbaric punishments.

The Quran proclaims:
There is no compulsion in religion. Surely the right has become distinct from error; so whosoever refuses to be led by those who transgress and believes in ALLAH, has surely grasped a strong handle which knows no breaking. And ALLAH is All-Hearing. All-Knowing. (2:257).

Again it says:And say, `It is the truth from your Lord; wherefore let him who will, believe, and let him, who will, disbelieve.... (18:30).

Respecting religious feelings @
http://www.alislam.org/library/articles/Respecting-Religious-Feelings-Peace-Symposium-2008.pdf


Today i doubt - Did islam truly had a golden age? or did it stole the science and technology and arts from other civilizations and marketed as theirs?
There is no question that Western Science is a Greco-Islamic legacy. However, it is commonly alleged that Islamic science was a derived science, that Muslim scientists followed the Greek theoretical tradition blindly and added nothing to the scientific method. This statement is false. Like all periods of intense scientific work, one first builds on what one has inherited; this is followed by an Age of maturity when doubts are raised on the teachings of the old masters followed by a break. Such a break came with the rise of observation and experiment, early in the Sciences of Islam; its clearest exponents were Ibn-al-Haitham and AI Biruni.................................
.......................
According to Briffault3
the Greeks systematized, generalized, and theorized, but the patient ways of investigation, the accumulation of positive knowledge, the minute methods of science, detailed and prolonged observation and experimental inquiry were altogether alien to the Greek temperament. What we call science arose in Europe as a result of a new spirit of inquiry, of new methods of investigation, of the method of experiment, observation, measurement, and of the development of Mathematics in a form unknown to the Greeks. That spirit and those methods were introduced into the European world by the Arabs. 'Modern' science is the most momentous contribution of the Islamic civilization.

These remarks of Briffault are reinforced by Sarton

The main, as well as the least obvious, achievement of the middle Ages was the creation of the experimental spirit and this was primarily due to the Muslims down to the 12th century.

https://www.alislam.org/library/articles/Islam-and-Science-Concordance-or-Conflict.pdf



...........man to the moon back in 1969.
I believe you went to moon.
Some of you do not!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories

Good wishes.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Yeah. They actually did come up with many advances and technologies that we enjoy today. Instead of killing each other like Christian Europe was, the Islamic Ottoman Empire was busy advancing our medical knowledge and inventing things like the toothbrush.
Ottomans were much later. Golden age relates to the Abbasid Caliphate.
I was thinking of the same thing about the Ottomans.

I think they (Ottomans) became more prominent around the 14th or 15th century...I can't remember WHEN precisely. All I remember is that it was them who bombarded and captured Byzantium in the later century.
 
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