islam and barbarity

[Terrywoodenpic]

Funny how you talk of arabs as if they are the majority of Muslims.
And you racist rant would make sense if Muslim countries were always poor. Yet history says otherwise.

Muslims do proliferate in the third world countries. Though some live in all countries.
Not all Muslims are poor or uneducated, some are exceptionally rich, but there tends to be an even greater wealth divide than in the west.
The proportion of females that are poor and uneducated is even more extreme.

Whilst most Arabs are Muslim ... Most Muslims are not arab.... though they do tend to adhere to the Arab dress code. A high proportion of Muslim teachers in the UK and the west are Arabs.

Some Arab countries have great oil wealth... one day this will not be the case. What they decide to do about that can not be left to fate or faith.

This is not racist ... this is their reality.
One may ask why many past wealthy Arab countries are now poor, when most once backward western countries are now comparatively rich? what is it about their respective society and beliefs that brought this about?

 

[McBell]

Funny how you talk of arabs as if they are the majority of Muslims.

Not nearly as funny as your complete avoidance of the thread topic...

 

[Vouthon]

Or is it perhaps too centered on authority structures and lacking on tools to question and correct their decrees?

I'm not so sure about the first part of what you say.

Sunni Islam, certainly, is not a very centralized faith when compared with my own Catholicism (the most hierarchical of all religions, probably) especially since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, after which it no longer had a Caliph to serve as a focal point of unity for the worldwide Ummah. The religion is bound together by the Qur'an, the Shariah, the Sunnah and the ulema. The latter are of course the international division of Islamic jurists or scholars who are tasked with studying, interpreting and applying Islamic law. Yes, their decrees are very powerful nonetheless they are a dispersed authority structure rather than a centralized one. Its actually quite "loosely" structured in my opinion. There are no clergy, no popes or ayatollahs (as in Twelver Shi'ite Islam). If one compares this with the very centralized power structure within the minority Nizari Ismaili Shi'ite branch of the Islamic family tree, one finds that despite their more authoritarian structure under a single man (the Agha Khan) they have actually been the Muslims most able to meet the challenges of modernity and re-interpret Islamic theology with fresh eyes in ways that have greatly benefitted their community.

The latter part of what you say, nonetheless, I applaud wholeheartedly. It echoes something that one of my philosophical heroines once said:

“…Fideism is a view very well suited to all forms of spiritual tyranny; fideism always ends up in the subordination of thought to a social myth. But the fact that doubt is possible shows that fideism is false. What is more, whenever one tries to suppress doubt, there is tyranny…”​

- Simone Weil (1909-1943), Lectures in philosophy (Leçons de philosophie)

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm not so sure about the first part of what you say.

Sunni Islam, certainly, is not a very centralized faith when compared with my own Catholicism (the most hierarchical of all religions, probably) especially since the fall of the Ottoman Empire, after which it no longer had a Caliph to serve as a focal point of unity for the worldwide Ummah. The religion is bound together by the Qur'an, the Shariah, the Sunnah and the ulema. The latter are of course the international division of Islamic jurists or scholars who are tasked with studying, interpreting and applying Islamic law. Yes, their decrees are very powerful nonetheless they are a dispersed authority structure rather than a centralized one. Its actually quite "loosely" structured in my opinion.

Considering how strongly many long for a new Caliphate, I believe your opinion your shared by many Muslims.

Maybe Sunni Islam is not really a religion very focused on a central authority, but that is certainly not the impression I get. That it currently lacks such a worldwide central authority does not IMO present counter-evidence.

There are no clergy, no popes or ayatollahs (as in Twelver Shi'ite Islam). If one compares this with the very centralized power structure within the minority Nizari Ismaili Shi'ite branch of the Islamic family tree, one finds that despite their more authoritarian structure under a single man (the Agha Khan) they have actually been the Muslims most able to meet the challenges of modernity and re-interpret Islamic theology with fresh eyes in ways that have greatly benefitted their community.

That may well be so. I would guess however that such is the exception rather than the general tendency.

The latter part of what you say, nonetheless, I applaud wholeheartedly. It echoes something that one of my philosophical heroines once said:

Thanks. That is indeed my feeling.

 

[Riverwolf]

Does islam make societies barbarous, or is islam somehow particularly attractive to barbarians?

What is barbarian, and what were these cultures like before Islam?

 

[Vouthon]

Maybe Sunni Islam is not really a religion very focused on a central authority, but that is certainly not the impression I get. That it currently lacks such a worldwide central authority does not IMO present counter-evidence.

You are correct in that it isn't exactly a priori evidence. Simply because Sunni Islam lacks the ideal centralized authority that it would actually like to have, doesn't make it therefore a de-centralized religion.

However (there's always a but ) I'm not convinced that even when Islamic civilization had a centralized strongman that this is the same thing as the religion itself possessing a concentrated power structure. The reason I say so is because the Caliph is a political figure, akin to the Emperor in Eastern Byzantine Christianity of the same period, something only intelligible to a society in which mosque and state are not separated. Although he was "head" of the Islamic community, and so "holy" in the same sense as the Byzantine Emperor who could call Ecumenical councils and act as the "head" of Christendom, he wasn't "really" a religious authority in the sense that the Catholic pope was and is. He couldn't infringe on the authority of the ulema to make official pronouncements on Islamic belief and praxis. Indeed the Umayyad caliphs barely followed Islam. They were eventually overthrown because they lived luxurious lives and were not the slightest bit interested in religion itself. He, the caliph, simply existed as a supreme military commander tasked with defending (and some times offending) on behalf of the Islamic polity.

What I'm saying, therefore, is that Islam saw him as a political leader of the unified Muslim state not so much as a religious figure in the same sense as Shi'ites in Iran view the Supreme Leader Ayatollah Khameini.

There just isn't a "pope" figure in Sunni Islam as a religion.

 

[Looncall]

What is barbarian, and what were these cultures like before Islam?

Barbarian? Pervasive institutionalized cruelty.

Given that these societies claim to be officially muslim, I think that what counts is what they are like now, regardless of what they were like earlier.

 

[Riverwolf]

Barbarian? Pervasive institutionalized cruelty.

Well, I'd say every country is guilty of that to some degree or another (except, perhaps, Iceland.)

Given that these societies claim to be officially muslim, I think that what counts is what they are like now, regardless of what they were like earlier.

I must disagree, because if they were exactly the same, if not worse, before Islam showed up, we cannot say that Islam is the cause of this cruelty; if it was worse beforehand, then Islam can only be seen as an improvement, however slight.

We do know for a fact that in Persia, Islam was a major boon during the European dark ages.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

well, i'd say every country is guilty of that to some degree or another (except, perhaps, iceland.)

iceland for the win!

 

[Riverwolf]

iceland for the win!

The beacon of hope for the modern world that nobody can immigrate to because it's resources barely sustain the population already there.

 

[LuisDantas]

The beacon of hope for the modern world that nobody can immigrate to because it's resources barely sustain the population already there.

Sadly, it may well become an unwilling reference for everyone else on that respect as well.

 

[Riverwolf]

Sadly, it may well become an unwilling reference for everyone else on that respect as well.

*sigh* Indeed...

 

[farouk]

Peace to all.
What is the meaning of Islam.
Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema" which means peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.Everything and every phenomenon in the world other than man is administered totally by God made laws, ie. they are obedient to God and submissive to his laws, they are in the State of Islam. Man possesses the qualities of intelligence and choice, thus he is invited to submit to the good will of God and obey His law.Thus if any one that does not submit and obey his laws are hence not in Islam.Submission to the good will of God, together with obedience to His beneficial Law, ie, becoming a Muslim, is the best safeguard for man's peace and harmony.
What is the meaning of barbarity.
Savage brutality or cruelty in actions or conduct.A cruel or savage act.
What is meaning of hate.
Hate is a deep and emotional extreme dislike that can be directed against individuals, entities, objects, or ideas. Hatred is often associated with feelings of anger and a disposition towards hostility. Commonly held moral rules, such as the golden rule, oppose universal hatred towards another.

Now read very carefully and understand what i am putting across to you.Everyone go and look at your selfs into a mirror.What you will observe is your right and left side reversed and we call this a" mirror image".Now look at the top and bottom of your image.
Now answer this simple question.
Why do we see left and right swapped around but not top and bottom?
When you find the answer you will ultimately increase your knowledge so far as Islam,barbarity and hate is concerned.
Peace
Farouk

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Peace to all.
What is the meaning of Islam.
Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema" which means peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.Everything and every phenomenon in the world other than man is administered totally by God made laws, ie. they are obedient to God and submissive to his laws, they are in the State of Islam. Man possesses the qualities of intelligence and choice, thus he is invited to submit to the good will of God and obey His law.Thus if any one that does not submit and obey his laws are hence not in Islam.Submission to the good will of God, together with obedience to His beneficial Law, ie, becoming a Muslim, is the best safeguard for man's peace and harmony.
What is the meaning of barbarity.
Savage brutality or cruelty in actions or conduct.A cruel or savage act.
What is meaning of hate.
Hate is a deep and emotional extreme dislike that can be directed against individuals, entities, objects, or ideas. Hatred is often associated with feelings of anger and a disposition towards hostility. Commonly held moral rules, such as the golden rule, oppose universal hatred towards another.

Now read very carefully and understand what i am putting across to you.Everyone go and look at your selfs into a mirror.What you will observe is your right and left side reversed and we call this a" mirror image".Now look at the top and bottom of your image.
Now answer this simple question.
Why do we see left and right swapped around but not top and bottom?
When you find the answer you will ultimately increase your knowledge so far as Islam,barbarity and hate is concerned.
Peace
Farouk

That mirror thing really makes no sense. We aren't "reversed" in that our images are morphed but that its the direct reflection of where our image is via the light bouncing off the mirror. Its nonsensical to make a spiritual reference from it.

 

[farouk]

That mirror thing really makes no sense. We aren't "reversed" in that our images are morphed but that its the direct reflection of where our image is via the light bouncing off the mirror. Its nonsensical to make a spiritual reference from it.

Peace to you.
I have never said anything about spiritual reference.Where did you get that idea from i cannot comprend.
Always remeber if something you have no knowledge of then it will always make no sense to you and hence you will direct it as nonsensical.In exactly the same manner you have no knowledge of Islam nor barbarity.
Go back to the drawing board.Read carefully what i said and look into the mirror again.The answer to my simple question will only be answered by those who have knowledge.
Peace
Farouk

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Peace to you.
I have never said anything about spiritual reference.Where did you get that idea from i cannot comprend.
Always remeber if something you have no knowledge of then it will always make no sense to you and hence you will direct it as nonsensical.In exactly the same manner you have no knowledge of Islam nor barbarity.
Go back to the drawing board.Read carefully what i said and look into the mirror again.The answer to my simple question will only be answered by those who have knowledge.
Peace
Farouk

Knowlege isn't always correct. I'd rather like answers and facts. Again your mirror has nothing to do with Isalm being or not being barbaric. Either you can formulate the idea in a comprehensive manner or you can't.

 

[Monotheist 101]

Or Climate!

Read this:

"A new meta study connects rising world temperatures with aggressive acts of violence and even war. The research has determined there to be a statistical relationship between the two phenomena." source: guardianlv(dot)com/2013/08/statistical-relationship-between-heat-and-violence-found/

This would explain why things are the way they are in Africa and the Middle East!

It's no surprise then that the Vikings were such gentle people.

Guess the atom bombs cooled everything down in hiroshima and nagasaki? Or was it the Muslims that dropped those bombs..And here we are discussing Muslim barbarians.. Those US army generals were humane, an example to mankind..b.s

 

[Monotheist 101]

Not nearly as funny as your complete avoidance of the thread topic...

Or your unnecessary input..

 

[Monotheist 101]

Guantanamo Bay..another humane example of the US preserving human rights..locking people up without trials, lots of freedom involved there, I wish the US economy finally crumbles knock them off their high-pedestal, Im sick of Capitalism..Cmon you arabs trade your oil in Gold..not worthless dollars..

I would like to ask if the Mongols were more barbaric after converting to Islam or before?

 

[Looncall]

Well, I'd say every country is guilty of that to some degree or another (except, perhaps, Iceland.)

I must disagree, because if they were exactly the same, if not worse, before Islam showed up, we cannot say that Islam is the cause of this cruelty; if it was worse beforehand, then Islam can only be seen as an improvement, however slight.

We do know for a fact that in Persia, Islam was a major boon during the European dark ages.

What non-muslim countries explicitly and thoroughly deny equal rights to women? In which ones is it common for howling mobs to commit mass murder over trifling disagreements over religion while at the same time telling us "there is no compulsion in religion"? It is the pervasive and often institutional nature of these evils I am interested in.

Muslims claim superior morality, yet their social organization does not back this up. If islam is not the cause of the cruelty, one must still ask why islam is so ineffective in preventing it. The correlation between cruelty and islam also remains to be explained.

Does islam make people cruel, or allow them to remain so, or is islam somehow attractive to people in cruel societies?