islam and barbarity

[Assad91]

i think i disagree with you, Islam didn't split after the prophet's death, Islam split after ottoman's death, and it was the rose up of what called shia islam sect, Yes after the prophet's death there was some strong revolutions but it was ok to be handled

Seems its 'spread misinformation&lies' day.

 

[Assad91]

Do you mean "ottoman" or Uzman?

 

[Riverwolf]

I would very much like to know that. Something has changed in islam. I wonder if it happened at the same time that islam abandoned science.

Science has nothing to do with the presence of barbarity or not. The Nazis embraced science like no other culture before or since.

 

[gilligan8914]

I was informed on another topic about a person called Tamerlane. He called himself the "sword of islam". Wars he started were supposed to have killed 5% of the worlds population at that time. Is that barbaric?

 

[Riverwolf]

I was informed on another topic about a person called Tamerlane. He called himself the "sword of islam". Wars he started were supposed to have killed 5% of the worlds population at that time. Is that barbaric?

Oh, please. The Romans laugh at that number.

 

[Looncall]

Science has nothing to do with the presence of barbarity or not. The Nazis embraced science like no other culture before or since.

That was not my point.I am merely curious about the timing.

 

[Looncall]

review post# 60 in that thread, you may not notice it

I'd be happy to agree with that post except for one thing: when the dictators are overthrown, things get worse. When the clerics get power, things get worse.

 

[Riverwolf]

That was not my point.I am merely curious about the timing.

I doubt anything about Islam itself changed at all. What changed was the world, and the political landscape of the Middle East. It's going through much the same growing pains Europe went through during the Industrial Revolution.

 

[Moishe3rd]

I doubt anything about Islam itself changed at all. What changed was the world, and the political landscape of the Middle East. It's going through much the same growing pains Europe went through during the Industrial Revolution.

I'd put it a bit earlier- the pains that Europe went through during the "Reformation" from about 1500 to 1750.
But, you are correct - if you added the Industrial Revolution to that mix, the continent of Europe would have probably been completely obliterated.

 

[Riverwolf]

I'd put it a bit earlier- the pains that Europe went through during the "Reformation" from about 1500 to 1750.
But, you are correct - if you added the Industrial Revolution to that mix, the continent of Europe would have probably been completely obliterated.

Well, it really started at the Black Death. Before then, things had settled down somewhat from the Western Roman Empire's collapse. Things just got worse and worse, culminating in the two World Wars.

 

[dynavert2012]

I'd be happy to agree with that post except for one thing: when the dictators are overthrown, things get worse. When the clerics get power, things get worse.

fully agree with you
in Islam we don't have what called theocratic state "only what called Shia Islam has" so you find the Imam there is like the pope, putting his nose in everything even if it's not religious, but the fact Islamic theocratic state had been ended with the death of the prophet.
that not means that Islam accepts the secular state, but Islam provide a civil state that it's law is extracted from Quran and hadith,

 

[dynavert2012]

Sorry, but I'm having serious trouble following you. Keeping track of people has never been my strongest skill. But it seems like simple politics at work, nothing supernatural.

you missed nothing yet, yes it's simple work but no leader at the moment could do it, and i have a current example in Egypt, our last constitution passed with an opposition of the minority although it was prepared by the brotherhood "an Islamic movement"

I'm pretty sure Jerusalem didn't have a pope; that's a distinctly Roman thing.

that's my mistake the right translation is Patriarch

 

[Riverwolf]

you missed nothing yet, yes it's simple work but no leader at the moment could do it, and i have a current example in Egypt, our last constitution passed with an opposition of the minority although it was prepared by the brotherhood "an Islamic movement"

Probably because of the simple fact that populations are more than 100x greater than they were during Mohammad's time, and now even introverts and people with ASD have voices when they wouldn't have at the time. Even then I doubt it was truly unanimous; just unanimous among those who cared enough to speak up.

that's my mistake the right translation is Patriarch

Okies. ^_^

 

[rusra02]

Using your logic, it would be fair to say that those Muslims who are terrorists are not true Muslims. You cannot assert one and not the other. If all those Christians who have performed heinous and barbarous acts are not true Christians, the same can be said of those Muslims who do the same.

Now onto another point, which really has nothing to do with the OP, but since you pointed it out, I'll say this: if the verse you quoted is the criteria of a "true" religion, then what does this say of religions such as Taoism and Buddhism? Furthermore, what does it say of Judaism, in light of the OP?

Good question. What does it say about these religions? If the religion itself fosters barbarity by it's teachings, then the rotten fruitage itself identifies the type of "tree" that produced it. We can apply Jesus statement to any and all religions. The Bible, I believe, shows there is but one true faith.(Ephesians 4:4-6)

 

[MeLtiZBleaCh]

fully agree with you
in Islam we don't have what called theocratic state "only what called Shia Islam has" so you find the Imam there is like the pope, putting his nose in everything even if it's not religious, but the fact Islamic theocratic state had been ended with the death of the prophet.
that not means that Islam accepts the secular state, but Islam provide a civil state that it's law is extracted from Quran and hadith,

The Imam puts his nose into everything? Well Im not a Shi'a and nor do I know much about the Imam or Shi'a teachings but as far as I have seen in the Shi'a community(In my country) they are a thousand times more united than any other sect. There Imam is almost comparable to The Caliphs. Well the specicfic sect Im talking about is the Ismaili Sect not sure if they are found in the rest of the world too. and best thing is they keep to themselves

 

[Monotheist 101]

The Imam puts his nose into everything? Well Im not a Shi'a and nor do I know much about the Imam or Shi'a teachings but as far as I have seen in the Shi'a community(In my country) they are a thousand times more united than any other sect. There Imam is almost comparable to The Caliphs. Well the specicfic sect Im talking about is the Ismaili Sect not sure if they are found in the rest of the world too. and best thing is they keep to themselves

Please dont tell me you are talking about Aga Khanis? If so please elaborate on how you think the Agha khan is like a caliph, please pick up a few of there books and judge for yourself.

 

[Starsoul]

As far as I am aware, all muslim-majority societies suffer certain institutionalized dysfunctions such as torture, lack of freedom of speech, religious intolerance, racism, misogyny etc.

I'm afraid then your level of awareness drastically needs to raise, since when did majority of populations/ communities were left to decide anything for their own good in the contemporary capitalist-psuedo -demoratic deceptive system of today?

This is often attributed to underlying culture, yet applies across disparate cultures (Afghan vs Indonesian, for example)

. All cultures or communities CAN be managed by just implication of law&order/ a transparent socio-economic justice system & etc, and the reason they are not let being managed by Islamic Law in muslim majority countries; is the ugly islamophobic face of this secular democracy which is trying to marginalize/eliminate all those people who want to truly live by the spirit of Islamic law, e.g Afghanistan. Give 2 reasons why US invaded Afghanistan, and why they cant digest the fact that 80% of Afghanistan's population wants to be ruled by Islamic Law, and supports the Taliban's stance?

Given how islam is described by its adherents (eg "religion of peace"), and how decent individual muslims living among other peoples mostly are, all this seems inexplicable. What gives?

You need a very basic brush with History and Politics. Govts from Egypt to Saudia, to any Muslim country in the world are running under secular leadership and systems, appointed and approved by guess who?

Muslims believe that there can not be full justice in any scope of life, unless Islamic Law is enforced in our lives. what you refer to as decent muslims living among other peoples, are people who've worked hard to get out of the mayhem in their countries to make a life for their families and thats how they are. All muslims by default cannot always be decent people, there always will be crime and evil among all nations, but, under Islamic law everything is well taken care of and the society is meant to grow in its best potential; personally,economically, morally and socially. Evil is supposed to be in firm check; other religions can decide their matters with their own laws, and nobody can escape justice whether you are the president or the peasant.

Does islam make societies barbarous, or is islam somehow particularly attractive to barbarians?

Letme ask you this, Is Anglo saxon Race an inherently evil, barbaric and blood hungry race? Honoured to have almost ethnically cleansed the US of its native inhabitants extending its genocide to the reduction of the North American Indian population from an estimated 12 million in 1500 to barely 237,000 , killing a race for nearly 4+ centuries, representing a"vast genocide . . . , the most sustained on record."

By the end of the 19th century, writes David E. Stannard, a historian at the University of Hawaii, native Americans had undergone the"worst human holocaust the world had ever witnessed, roaring across two continents non-stop for four centuries and consuming the lives of countless tens of millions of people." In the judgement of Lenore A. Stiffarm and Phil Lane, Jr.,"there can be no more monumental example of sustained genocide—certainly none involving a 'race' of people as broad and complex as this—anywhere in the annals of human history."

Fast forward to today, what is happening around the world?Who's blood is being majorly shed, all over the world? Muslims. Is there an agenda? not really, muslims just deserve to die as some have decided and continue to decide.

Only Might is still right, right?

Exactly.

 

[MeLtiZBleaCh]

Please dont tell me you are talking about Aga Khanis? If so please elaborate on how you think the Agha khan is like a caliph, please pick up a few of there books and judge for yourself.

Ill leave this here then since its not particularly related to The OP and also because my own research is quite well non-existent on this topic(Personal Experiences is All i have)

 

[Philomath]

Good question. What does it say about these religions? If the religion itself fosters barbarity by it's teachings, then the rotten fruitage itself identifies the type of "tree" that produced it. We can apply Jesus statement to any and all religions. The Bible, I believe, shows there is but one true faith.(Ephesians 4:4-6)

A classic example of the tea pot calling the kettle black. Christianity has fostered just as much barbarity as Islam. We can identify Christianity by the "rotten fruitage" that it has produced.

 

[dynavert2012]

The Imam puts his nose into everything? Well Im not a Shi'a and nor do I know much about the Imam or Shi'a teachings but as far as I have seen in the Shi'a community(In my country) they are a thousand times more united than any other sect. There Imam is almost comparable to The Caliphs. Well the specicfic sect Im talking about is the Ismaili Sect not sure if they are found in the rest of the world too. and best thing is they keep to themselves

what you see about Ismaili is normal for the minorities in every place, if you went to Germany you will find how Muslims there are dealing with pierre vogel there, if you come to Egypt you will see how the Christians are worshiping the pope not just considering him as a Caliph but really it's like worshiping
and look into the shia in iran it's different, you won't find them united as you think because they are the majority, this is the behavior of any minority