Islam and Being Homosexual

[mojtaba]

Here is a good thread about the topic.

Islamic view of Homosexuality and the different types of sexual attraction spectrum & intercourses

 

[Piculet]

I have annotated two sources where you can see for yourself. I think that any person suggesting that being homosexual is accepted by Islam, is disingenuous.

The Wikipedia article and a YouTube video? Neither of those are appropriate sources. But I want to hear it from you. I want to know what you think. Not what you have read.

 

[Mike.Hester]

Have you watched or read my citations? What is it you want me to say?

 

[danieldemol]

This is not for all gays. It is for those who kidnap a male (specially , kids or youths) and rape him. It also depends on the judge's decision that it is nessecery or not ( I mean public execution).

What transparency is there in Iran’s judiciary system? How can you guarantee that rape of a minor is anything more than an allegation without the oversight of human rights groups?

 

[Piculet]

Have you watched or read my citations? What is it you want me to say?

I want you to write with your own words what you think, with some amount of detail. Your own comments are vague. In fact, even your sources tend to be vague, as Wikipedia doesn't just offer one view point in these matters. I read a lot of the Wikipedia article and it had multiple viewpoints presented. There is only one correct viewpoint, but you could at the very least point out the view presented in the article you support.

The article isn't judgmental toward Islam, imo, it is quite neutral.

I don't watch such videos as you linked.

 

[eik]

Just like Christian beliefs originated in Judaism, Neoplatonism, and Gnosticism. Religious beliefs generally do not win any originality contests, there is a reason why religions have spoken to so many people over thousands of years after all.

Of course Christianity originated in Judaism. The New Testament is very much an extension of the Old, but has nothing to do with modern Judaism.

Neoplatonism is a source of Christian heresy, not belief, especially in respect of the High Trinity. Gnosticism is just gnosticism and no part of Christianity.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

That's haram... I don't know what you want me to say.

It doesn't matter to me what you say...

But I say it is not "haram," but rather the result of the ignorance of more than a millenium ago.

I believe that the human sciences (all of them) assume that they are working with the best information available to them so far, but are prepared, when new information is available, or new theories explain that information better, they are ready to change. Religions, in my view, make the explicit assumption that they already have all the best and most perfect answers, and only ever change their minds as a result of bloody schism and religious war -- until everybody is satisfied they have the new perfect answers that will (one again) last forever.

You must understand, I think that is not particularly bright. I think the human mind (or at least some of them) is capable of a lot better than that. I could never be satisfied as part of a religion, therefore. And most especially not, for exactly the reasons I am citing, of Islam.

 

[mojtaba]

What transparency is there in Iran’s judiciary system? How can you guarantee that rape of a minor is anything more than an allegation without the oversight of human rights groups?

Iran has its judiciary system and its rules is clear. According to Iran’s judiciary system, even a little doubt (a real one) about evidences can cancel the executation penalty.
It should be said that a recorded video and sound is not a conclusive evidence in Iran. For example, no gay would be execuated even when there is a recorded video of his doing.

 

[Cherub786]

The fallacy of an appeal to an assumed authority (in this case, 21st century liberal values). I'm not so critical of homosexuals as I am of the homosexualist movement, a political movement which wants to instill the idea that homosexuality should not just be tolerated but in fact celebrated, from a very tender age via public education. The homosexualist movement is part and parcel of the 1960s sexual revolution. Basically, my problem is with the values espoused by the sexual revolution as I subscribe to traditional, religious morality and ethics.

I oppose violence to gays, lesbians, transgenders, etc. But equally, I oppose attempts by the state to criminalize speech as "hate speech" which is antagonistic toward homosexualism. These days there are situations in which the state has revoked the tax exempt status of religious organizations, banned entry and issuing of visas to religious preachers, and other punitive measures against the religious element simply for expressing our antagonism toward homosexualism.

If you study history, you will realize the so-called LGBTQ identity did not exist before the 20th century. It was never an identity or a community. This is a very new development that sexual behavior becomes the basis of identity, and is the basis of forming communities. It is a 20th century innovation. I believe it is a social engineering project for the purpose of undermining and sabotaging the movements of bonafide minority communities based in race and/or religion for civil rights.

 

[firedragon]

It is very clear from Islamic sources and recent history that Islam is totally incompatible with Homosexuality.In Iran if convicted after a fair religious trial, you are thrown off tall buildings to a horrible and painful death.You can watch these executions on Youtube. In other Muslim countries your head is chopped off. So how is the religion of peace compatible with 21th century liberal values?

LGBT in Islam - Wikipedia

How about Christianity? Is that compatible? Do you know what the Bible says and what the Qur'an says about Homosexuality?

Have you made any analysis?

 

[eik]

The fallacy of an appeal to an assumed authority (in this case, 21st century liberal values). I'm not so critical of homosexuals as I am of the homosexualist movement,

You've answered your own question about why such a political movement exists. The fact is you don't have any opportunity for a "half-way" house in the bible, where you can accept the sinner but not the political movement that justifies the sinner.

Under biblical law it involves criminal acts requiring the ultimate sanction. Such criminal law is approved by Paul in 1 Tim 1:9.

You either believe the act is criminal and should be punished by law, or else stop whinging about political movements for homosexuals.

 

[danieldemol]

Iran has its judiciary system and its rules is clear. According to Iran’s judiciary system, even a little doubt (a real one) about evidences can cancel the executation penalty.
It should be said that a recorded video and sound is not a conclusive evidence in Iran. For example, no gay would be execuated even when there is a recorded video of his doing.

If that’s the case and they have nothing to hide they should allow independent human rights observers to oversee trials such as amnesty international or other respected human rights organisations.

What human rights organisations are allowed to attend court trials for gay people?

 

[Mike.Hester]

How about Christianity? Is that compatible? Do you know what the Bible says and what the Qur'an says about Homosexuality?

Have you made any analysis?

When was the last time any Christian church executed a homosexual?

 

[Shia Islam]

I suppose it'll take the same amount of work to make it so, as it has taken Christians to turn the homophobic, misogynistic, pro-slavery religion of Europe and America into one compatible with democracy and human rights.

It is very clear from Islamic sources and recent history that Islam is totally incompatible with Homosexuality.In Iran if convicted after a fair religious trial, you are thrown off tall buildings to a horrible and painful death.You can watch these executions on Youtube. In other Muslim countries your head is chopped off. So how is the religion of peace compatible with 21th century liberal values?

LGBT in Islam - Wikipedia

It is not about Islam, it's about human nature. All the religions, and generally all humans throughtout thousands of years are in consensus that man should not sodomize another man. Delusions of some recent days so called "gays", can't disprove that.

 

[Tambourine]

It is not about Islam, it's about human nature. All the religions, and generally all humans throughtout thousands of years are in consensus that man should not sodomize another man. Delusions of some recent days so called "gays", can't disprove that.

Sex with boys and young men has been a fairly usual practice among Persian and Afghan elites since, arguably, the Achaemid era.

 

[Piculet]

Sex with boys and young men has been a fairly usual practice among Persian and Afghan elites since, arguably, the Achaemid era.

Define fairly usual and provide evidence for that claim.

 

[Tambourine]

Define fairly usual and provide evidence for that claim.

"Fairly usual" in the same sense as homosexuality is "fairly usual" in literally any human culture that has ever existed, because it is a simple fact of humanity much like heterosexuality is. I could have put forward Graeco-Roman bisexuality as an example, but I chose to put forward Persia instead, because it hits closer to home for the person making the claim.

There have been records of male prostitution (specifically, boys and young adults) during the US occupation of Afghanistan among the male elites of the area, and we know that a similar practice existed in the courts of the Achaemids as well.It does not take much to conclude that this modern practice originated from that past era, and was likely maintained among the elites in the Persian and Afghan cultural space, in the same manner that Graeco-Roman bisexuality never truly died out but was simply covered up until it once again became a show of status to engage in such practices.

Or do you actually believe that homosexuality is an invention of the modern age, and only comes from the West?

And just to head off any potential misunderstandings, I am not trying to insult you, your culture, or your religion here. I genuinely do not think that there is anything shameful in homosexuality or romantic male-on-male love, and frankly find it even kind of insulting to our nature as human beings to condemn the consensual love between two people simply because one of them has the "wrong" gender.

 

[danieldemol]

It is not about Islam, it's about human nature. All the religions, and generally all humans throughtout thousands of years are in consensus that man should not sodomize another man. Delusions of some recent days so called "gays", can't disprove that.

Sounds like argumentum adpopulum fallacy to me.

As far as the “delusions” assertion goes, projecting much?

 

[loverofhumanity]

It is very clear from Islamic sources and recent history that Islam is totally incompatible with Homosexuality.In Iran if convicted after a fair religious trial, you are thrown off tall buildings to a horrible and painful death.You can watch these executions on Youtube. In other Muslim countries your head is chopped off. So how is the religion of peace compatible with 21th century liberal values?

LGBT in Islam - Wikipedia

I believe that all the major religions teach love and compassion and that the Prophets have always taught mercy and kindness to all.

But over the centuries I believe that religion became corrupted by man made ideas, doctrines and beliefs which were not from the original teachings which is why the Holy Books every major religion speaks of a time when another Krishna, Christ or Buddha will appear on earth to renew religion.

 

[firedragon]

When was the last time any Christian church executed a homosexual?

Ah. So you are talking about what people do, not religions right? You have an agenda behind you right? So can you define your agenda clearly?