fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
Yes, and I asked her to be open minded about the comparison not the whole idology. As for being open minded, then debates are a good way to show that you are.
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Islam and Pantheism...
- Thread starter ZoyaHayat
- Start date
Yes, and I asked her to be open minded about the comparison not the whole idology. As for being open minded, then debates are a good way to show that you are.
fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
We: A pronoun used to mean all the others ( including you) and me
Because we are supposed to worship God? Therefore worship one another, therefore worship muck of animals , therefore ...
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Yes, all of us. Not just one.We: A pronoun used to mean all the others ( including you) and me
Do you worship your hands?
fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
No? Because they are not my God?? Nor a part of God?
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Well, you're not mine, either. You're an aspect of God, and so am I. Equals. So, why would I worship you?
fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
And god is an aspect of god, Im an aspect of myself, am I not? Therefore we are equals to god, therefore no need to worship Him.
I just to make sure, sorry if its a bit silly but in pantheism do you worship God or not? I assure you that Im not joking, Im starting to think that pantheism is not based on worshipping God, is that right?
Sorry again if its sounds silly
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
No, it's a fair question, and the answer depends on the pantheist. (I should note that I'm actually a panentheist, which is similar but not quite the same.) I do worship God, but perhaps not in the same sense you mean. There are no commands to be obedient to, no subservience. It's a celebration of something greater than myself.And god is an aspect of god, Im an aspect of myself, am I not? Therefore we are equals to god, therefore no need to worship Him.
I just to make sure, sorry if its a bit silly but in pantheism do you worship God or not? I assure you that Im not joking, Im starting to think that pantheism is not based on worshipping God, is that right?
Sorry again if its sounds silly
A-ManESL
Well-Known Member
It is okay if you want to feel so, but every Quranic verse has many layers of meaning and I feel it is not right to explain away the meanings not conforming to your way of thinking. The Quran has many multiple meaning verses as well (3:7). Indeed there are translations to the above verse which say that everywhere you may look there is the "presence" of God. I can point to many other verses such as 50:16, (We are nearer to him(man) then his jugular vein), 57:3 (He is the first, He is the last, he is the outward, he is the inward), 4:78 (Everything comes from God) etc too which show the presence of God in everything and everywhere. As the Quran itself says(3:7) it falls upon the people with knowledge to properly understand them, and thats why I brought up such an appeal to authority, by discussing Imam Ghazali.
I am pretty sure of what I said, having read Imam Ghazali's works myself, which I invite you to do the same (The Deliverance From Error), his autobiography which he wrote at the end of his life, after his understanding of the nature of things had changed. He spent mastered the arguments of kalam, Islamic philosophy, and Ismailism. Though appreciating what was valid in the first two of these, at least, he determined that all three approaches were inadequate and found ultimate value only in the mystical experience and insight. He says this explicitly in the book.
Moreover all of what I said regarding him are not my own thoughts but is sourced from the following book: Biographical encyclopaedia of Sufis: Central Asia and Middle East By N. Hanif.
It is my humble opinion that, as the Arabs of the 7th C were not sophisticated enough to understand the subtelities of panentheism, that approach was not stressed upon in Islam, and such Quranic verses were given less emphasis. After all, stressing upon various aspects of God is a never ending exercise (31:27) and what is more essential is to follow the path towards God.
Regards.
And god is an aspect of god, Im an aspect of myself, am I not? Therefore we are equals to god, therefore no need to worship Him.
I just to make sure, sorry if its a bit silly but in pantheism do you worship God or not? I assure you that Im not joking, Im starting to think that pantheism is not based on worshipping God, is that right?
Sorry again if its sounds silly
I'm not sure that this works. In pantheism, God = the Whole. I do not think that God is a distinguished, individual thing/entity. (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Thus I think a person can worship any aspect of the Whole legitimately for everything is an equal aspect of God. Or one can choose to not worship at all.
Panentheism is different. This is where God is the Source, Creator, and from God's very own Self is manifest all of Creation. In this way, everything/one is a part of God but no individual thing is God itself. So God is most certainly the Greatest.
K.Venugopal
Immobile Wanderer
The other day I saw a dog run over by a car. It was actually sleeping under a parked car by the road side when the car drove off abruptly. The poor thing let out a howl and ran across the road to the row of shops, where I was passing by. Immediately all the shopkeepers (the dog belonged to one of the shopkeepers, was rather old and lived outside the shop on the kerb, where it was regularly fed) ran towards the dog. Till it reached the kerb, it seemed OK as there was no external injury. But alas, moments later its feet gave away and it slumped to the ground. Now this dog was basically a stray unwashed fellow who somehow warmed up to a shopkeeper and found his living space outside the shop. So you might imagine that no one would have bothered too much. But no, everybody wanted to do something. One man said I have already called the vet; another was saying, I am calling the ambulance. While another brought a basin of water, a young man massaged the dog and tried to revive it. For a moment we thought it was going to revive, but soon its eyes became glazed. It took it a gulp or two of water. But the injury within was too severe. Within minutes he was dead. A pall of gloom fell over the place with many bystanders visibly sad. That moment I felt the divinity of it all - life, death, a dog and man's innate love for another living being. I would have scarcely felt, Fatima, the dog, in life and in death, was a degradation upon God. We may be too preoccupied to watch a stray dog living its life, but believe me, I felt he exuded dignity in his death.
fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
Yes, but our almost all our arabic examples show that humans in our world are more important than dogs, while in your world one prefers to feed his dog while keeping his child hungry, and Im not assuming I saw it hundred of times ( your world was my world once),a man in USA wrote all his will for his dog because he didnt feel that anyone of his relatives deserved it , in France (my ex-world) most of couples prefer to get a dog then to have children, and if they have children then they love their dog more than them.
And once, I saw an episode of the moment of truth and htere was this lady who were asked, if you find an almost dad human and almost dad dog who would you rescue first, so she answered the dog. So, you may had felt that the story you wrote was something great but to me I read completely differently.
At the time of the prophet sallahu 'alayhi wassalam, Shariah was the first one ever to give right to animals , dont shoot on birds to play, a women went to hell because of cat that she attached and did not feed, a man went to paradise because he gave water to a thristy dog in a desert where there was no water at all ( see we love dogs too) , it is forbidden to play races with any animal that is not used in war ( i.e. chicken, dogs etc forbidden, horses allowed ). However, humans right were much more higher than animals, we are not supposed in shariah to love animals and care about them while letting humans dying. The compassion and love between citizens of Islamic states is one of the most important topics of shariah:
For example the prophet sallalahu 'alayhi wassalam urges muslims to give salam to everyonen wether they know them or not, ( do you feel like its about the same as that "lets hug" compaign that used to be in your streets, compassion between citizens is something missed there).
He sallalahu 'alayhi wassalam said that if you meet your brother with a smiling face then it is like if you had gave charity.
And lot of other stuffs
Im sorry if I went on and on, since its not our topic but I wanted to point atthis specific thing that you mentioned.
As for the idea of your post, then it is not the dog who was the degradation of God, while Allh aza wajjal has stated in a divine hadeeth, that his mercy for his slaves are 100 parts, he sent one of it to earth while he kept the 99 left for the day of judgment, and that only part is the mercy you see between a mother and her child, humans or animals, the mercy for the poor , etc so ALlah azza wajjal clearly states, whaat you say is part of the mercy He sent down to earth
And Allah knows best
And once, I saw an episode of the moment of truth and htere was this lady who were asked, if you find an almost dad human and almost dad dog who would you rescue first, so she answered the dog. So, you may had felt that the story you wrote was something great but to me I read completely differently.
At the time of the prophet sallahu 'alayhi wassalam, Shariah was the first one ever to give right to animals , dont shoot on birds to play, a women went to hell because of cat that she attached and did not feed, a man went to paradise because he gave water to a thristy dog in a desert where there was no water at all ( see we love dogs too) , it is forbidden to play races with any animal that is not used in war ( i.e. chicken, dogs etc forbidden, horses allowed ). However, humans right were much more higher than animals, we are not supposed in shariah to love animals and care about them while letting humans dying. The compassion and love between citizens of Islamic states is one of the most important topics of shariah:
For example the prophet sallalahu 'alayhi wassalam urges muslims to give salam to everyonen wether they know them or not, ( do you feel like its about the same as that "lets hug" compaign that used to be in your streets, compassion between citizens is something missed there).
He sallalahu 'alayhi wassalam said that if you meet your brother with a smiling face then it is like if you had gave charity.
And lot of other stuffs
Im sorry if I went on and on, since its not our topic but I wanted to point atthis specific thing that you mentioned.
As for the idea of your post, then it is not the dog who was the degradation of God, while Allh aza wajjal has stated in a divine hadeeth, that his mercy for his slaves are 100 parts, he sent one of it to earth while he kept the 99 left for the day of judgment, and that only part is the mercy you see between a mother and her child, humans or animals, the mercy for the poor , etc so ALlah azza wajjal clearly states, whaat you say is part of the mercy He sent down to earth
And Allah knows best
fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
Why? We're just debating dear why do you want it to stop?
why do you want it to stop?
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Well, tbh... from this side it seems a lot more like we're trying to explain something to you, and you're telling us why we're wrong rather than trying to understand.Why? We're just debating dear
You have to get where the other person is coming from before you can debate it.
Twig pentagram
High Priest
And god is an aspect of god, Im an aspect of myself, am I not? Therefore we are equals to god, therefore no need to worship Him.
I just to make sure, sorry if its a bit silly but in pantheism do you worship God or not? I assure you that Im not joking, Im starting to think that pantheism is not based on worshipping God, is that right?
Sorry again if its sounds silly
Im pantheist and I don't worship anything, so you are right about me.
fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
Im sorry if I sounded like if I was trying to push my belief on you, but I did not mean that at all.
You were talking about your belief and I was explaining to you why I dont believe in it, if you accept it than its fine if you dont then that doesnt mean I was pushing you to believe it.
Proofs are proofs, accept them or not , in both ways its called a debate , and I thought comparative religions was in the debate forums ??
Again, I apologise if I sounded like that but I certainly did not mean to, I just was trying to prove that the idea of pantheism is a bit unreasonable from my own perspective and that doesnt mean I dont respect you
Best regards
Yours
Fatima ZAhrae
You were talking about your belief and I was explaining to you why I dont believe in it, if you accept it than its fine if you dont then that doesnt mean I was pushing you to believe it.
Proofs are proofs, accept them or not , in both ways its called a debate
, and I thought comparative religions was in the debate forums ?? Again, I apologise if I sounded like that but I certainly did not mean to, I just was trying to prove that the idea of pantheism is a bit unreasonable from my own perspective and that doesnt mean I dont respect you
Best regards
Yours
Fatima ZAhrae
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fatima_bintu_islam
Active Member
I guess this idea is more reasonable than saying someone a pantheist and he worships God in my humble opinion , thanks for sharing
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
OK, no worries. Text-only communication tends to create such problems.Im sorry if I sounded like if I was trying to push my belief on you, but I did not mean that at all.
You were talking about your belief and I was explaining to you why I dont believe in it, if you accept it than its fine if you dont then that doesnt mean I was pushing you to believe it.
Proofs are proofs, accept them or not , in both ways its called a debate
Again, I apologise if I sounded like that but I certainly did not mean to, I just was trying to prove that the idea of pantheism is a bit unreasonable from my own perspective and that doesnt mean I dont respect you
Best regards
Yours
Fatima ZAhrae
I know you're not a pantheist, and that makes sense to me. Islam is pretty strongly theistic, although there are always exceptions.
Again, I'd be happy to debate it with you elsewhere if you like.
I know the debate zones are kinda confusing, but no, Comparative Religion is not one.
Storm
ThrUU the Looking Glass
Well, it depends on the pantheist.
Some adhere to what Dawkins calls "sexed up atheism." The material universe = God. No mysticism, no worship, no nothing. I don't really get the point of that, myself.
Others believe there's an underlying, unified consciousness. In this case, worship is more a celebration of the greater whole than anything else.
Then you have panentheists, like me. I believe the material cosmos is God's body. For me, worship is, like the second kind of pantheist, celebration. It's about expressing love and awe.