Islam and the West ~ Finding Common Ground (the Non-DIR thread)

[Rainbow Mage]

I think the best we could do possibly, if we want to have Muslims open up to us more as far as common ground goes, is give them Sharia courts in western countries. I know many are oppossed to the idea, but honestly, it may be the best we can do for now. As for the presence of our troops in the Middle East, pull them out immediately. America has no further reason to be there, in my view, they never had a reason in the first place.

 

[JMorris]

I think the best we could do possibly, if we want to have Muslims open up to us more as far as common ground goes, is give them Sharia courts in western countries. I know many are oppossed to the idea, but honestly, it may be the best we can do for now. As for the presence of our troops in the Middle East, pull them out immediately. America has no further reason to be there, in my view, they never had a reason in the first place.

what complete nonsense. that would create two separate set of laws and two separate set of citizens. not only would that be ridiculous, but in america its unconstitutional. if there are muslims who want a sharia system, they can move to a country that either has it or one where it can be implemented. in the west, america in particular, it'll never happen, and nor should it.

 

[kai]

That's funny... because if you minus religion and keep government, you are still not a Muslim.

But if you minus religion and keep government, you are not a Muslim.

Which leaves me to believe.. that Islam has nothing to do with government in and of itself.

then no offence but you no very little of Islam or Sharia,Islam is political, its not just a religion its a total way of life.

 

[kai]

Do you think that a secular political system in a Western state would save any effort in preventing say a Shari'a based government from succeeding in a democratic process? No as long as the democratic process is left intact and the Sharia based government can be voted out if the people are unhappy, but is that very concept conceivable within a sharia based government?

Does that also mean Kai, that the secular regimes in many Muslim countries that prevent participation of the Islamic political groups are incompatible with the West?

In my view any government that prevents its people from changing the said government by due process/ consent, is incompatible with the west.





heres the billion dollar question not4me , would/could a Sharia based government allow itself to be voted out of government? In fact would politics and political parties? be compatible with a Sharia based government?

 

[Tiapan]

Right up to the 1980's islamic nations busied themselves adopting western technology and advancing rapidly becoming fantastic places of diversity and culture.

then something happened, they pulled the birqua over their heads and returned to the dark ages.

What went wrong?

Cheers

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

In the Baha'i view, Christianity and Islam (not to mention all the other great religions) have CONSIDERABLE common ground given that they're part of a single series of ever-evolving religions comprising a single faith, the Faith of God; and succeeding each other without end!

Best!

Bruce

 

[kai]

Greetings!

In the Baha'i view, Christianity and Islam (not to mention all the other great religions) have CONSIDERABLE common ground given that they're part of a single series of ever-evolving religions comprising a single faith, the Faith of God; and succeeding each other without end!

Best!

Bruce

Hi Bruce please tell me do Baha'i have any political aspirations?

 

[zenzero]

Friend Anne,

The common ground is for every human to realise that religion is a way or a path which is which is internal and is personal.
society are made by people with common laws which allows religious freedom in private.
when every one understands and respect these understanding then the society is in harmony.

Love & rgds

 

[Tiapan]

I agree with zen religion should be personal not institutional or government. Since Islam is both I dread it severely, currently I see it as the re-emergence of a type of neo-nazism..


Cheers

 

[GabrielWithoutWings]

Hi Bruce please tell me do Baha'i have any political aspirations?

Baha'i teachings prohibit Baha'is from engaging in partisan politics because partisanship is inherently divisive in nature, pitting groups of people against one another in struggle. Therefore, Baha'is may not join political parties, campaign for candidates in elections or participate in other forms of partisan activity.

Source.

One of the things I don't like about the Baha'i Faith. They want to enact revolutionary social change, but aren't allowed political involvement to see those changes come about. This amounts to basically sitting around and waiting for a non-Baha'i to come along and just up and do what they'd like with no prompting.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

Hi Bruce; please tell me, do Baha'i have any political aspirations?

None whatever!

Not only is membership in political parties forbidden, but our scriptures condemn partisan politics generally as divisive! In this respect, it's important to note that our central goal is fostering UNITY, and the divide-and-conquer methods of partisanship are utterly at odds with this.

Further, our own internal administrative system functions by secret ballot but WITHOUT nominations, campaigning, or discussion of individual personalities--and works very well, please note!

And GWW, you're quite mistaken when you describe us as doing nothing! The key is that we operate by CONSENSUS, not through divisive measures, and find that this is most desireable and effective!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Cosmos]

:sadear brother, there is only one problem. The original voting process of 1963 did not meet the requirements of Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi for there are explicit parameters for developing the fully developed Universal House of Justice of Baha'u'llah. In fact, I detail this in-depth in one of my comment posts.

We have lacking still to this day several requirements that keeps many Baha'is from either fully accepting the authority in Haifa or fully understanding their role. These are:

1. Actively operating executive branch presidency or Guardianship
2. Establishment of secondary or regional Houses of Justice--now the local and national Spiritual Assemblies--in every country on the planet
3. Creation and implementation of a Baha'i World Court or Supreme Tribunal

These are the fundamental problems when we are dealing with authenticity from fakes, frauds, and imitations.

So, we cannot honestly claim that the UHJ in Haifa was established via universal suffrage or with the proper institutions in place to be THE fully evolved Universal House of Justice. In fact, we the Baha'i World lack the necessary figurehead who is the "irremovable member for life" (please see pgs. 13-15 of Abdul-Baha's Last Will and Testament)! And the Baha'i World cannot possibly be united when there's a schism in the Faith that my elders here in my local community continuously lie about and cover up with veiled words, while there's a campaign of witch hunting for the "Covenant-Breakers" in every community, and the world itself is still disharmonized. :help:

 

[xkatz]

I think the best we could do possibly, if we want to have Muslims open up to us more as far as common ground goes, is give them Sharia courts in western countries. I know many are oppossed to the idea, but honestly, it may be the best we can do for now. As for the presence of our troops in the Middle East, pull them out immediately. America has no further reason to be there, in my view, they never had a reason in the first place.

Muslims can informally follow Sharia if they want to. However, we cannot have an actual system of Sharia or Sharia courts because that creates inequalities between Muslims and non-Muslims and also it would violate separation of state and religion. Also making Sharia courts costs tax money and how would governments regulate them?

 

[301ouncer]

I thought the Mirza gulam or their false prophet was claiming to be the coming christ? and I also thought christ will rule the earth justly?

Mirza gulam was neither and ended up before his death as an office ticket clark.

And Finally....

I thought Mirza gulam will make every christian a bahi follower?

Oh well I guess all did not go according to the plans. Ah well not to worry we shall all meet and great each other on the day.

Group hug now. :sorry1:

 

[Cosmos]

I think the best we could do possibly, if we want to have Muslims open up to us more as far as common ground goes, is give them Sharia courts in western countries. I know many are opposed to the idea, but honestly, it may be the best we can do for now. As for the presence of our troops in the Middle East, pull them out immediately. America has no further reason to be there, in my view, they never had a reason in the first place.

I personally think this would be a reasonable suggestion to the international world courts. As BruceDLimber mentioned, our Baha'i Law and the extension of the Baha'i Administrative Order is the new sharia or law revealed first by His Holiness the Bab and later instituted by His Holiness Baha'u'llah. Though not a precedent at present it is of utmost importance that our institutions acquire international sanctioning from sovereign nation-states to apply our rulings legitimately to the regions.

 

[*Anne*]

The common ground is for every human to realise that religion is a way or a path which is which is internal and is personal.
society are made by people with common laws which allows religious freedom in private.
when every one understands and respect these understanding then the society is in harmony.

:yes:

Another possible point of common ground: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems Islam calls for women to be treated honorably. I realize that what we've seen in some cultures isn't reflecting that at all, but that doesn't change the original blueprint. I think women of Islam and women of the West can definitely bond over this particular issue. Better yet, we can fight for women who are being abused.

Just in time for Mother's Day, I especially like:

“A man came to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, who among the people is most deserving of my good company?’ He said, ‘Your mother.’ He asked, ‘Then who?’ He said, ‘Your mother.’ He asked, ‘Then who?’ He said, ‘Your mother.’ He asked, ‘Then who?’ He said, ‘Then your father.’”​

No argument from me on that one!

 

[kai]

:yes:

Another possible point of common ground: Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems Islam calls for women to be treated honorably. I realize that what we've seen in some cultures isn't reflecting that at all, but that doesn't change the original blueprint. I think women of Islam and women of the West can definitely bond over this particular issue. Better yet, we can fight for women who are being abused.

Just in time for Mother's Day, I especially like:

“A man came to the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) and said: ‘O Messenger of Allah, who among the people is most deserving of my good company?’ He said, ‘Your mother.’ He asked, ‘Then who?’ He said, ‘Your mother.’ He asked, ‘Then who?’ He said, ‘Your mother.’ He asked, ‘Then who?’ He said, ‘Then your father.’”​

No argument from me on that one!

and yet the issue of women and women's rights seems to be an issue that divides the Islamic world and the west? Maybe if the Islamic world could first define what exactly are womens rights within Islam we could have a dialogue but unfortunately its a mish mash .


One would think that the rise of ultra-conservatism, namely the Salafi project emanating from Saudi Arabia, would be more tolerant of Islam's historical support for women's rights and their mobility in public – think of the era of the prophet and the openness of that society. The prophet was adamant that all people were welcome in Medina and that women were to be treated with the utmost respect. At the time, unlike today, there was no sexual apartheid in the mosque, with men and women praying together in a show of unity. Now, what we are witnessing is the rise of a movement that is as vehemently anti-women as it is anti-progress.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/may/08/women-middle-east-religion

 

[*Anne*]

and yet the issue of women and women's rights seems to be an issue that divides the Islamic world and the west.

Perhaps the women of Islam, along with the men who love and honor them, can change this. There would be no shortage of encouragement from the West.

 

[kai]

Perhaps the women of Islam, along with the men who love and honor them, can change this. There would be no shortage of encouragement from the West.

Indeed but until the "real Islam" rises in a country, any country, we have very little common ground with any Extant Islamic countries over women's rights.

 

[*Anne*]

Indeed but until the "real Islam" rises in a country, any country, we have very little common ground with any Extant Islamic countries over women's rights.

I agree that the cultures may have very little in common. What I've read about some of the men is unrecognizable to me.

No normal woman, however, wants to be neglected, abused, or see her daughters suffer ~ I don't care where you are born. This is something we definitely have in common.