Islam rejects meritocracies?

[icehorse]

I believe I understand that Islam teaches Muslims that they are closer to God than all other people, correct? And also that men are superior to women. This could perhaps be summarized by saying that Islam teaches Muslim men that they are entitled to success.

In the article linked to below, the author claims that in Brussels, many Muslim immigrants are poor, but they are much better off than they were in their home countries, no poorer than many others in Brussels, and much better off than people in other parts of Europe, for example Spain. In spite of this relative improvement, and in spite of opportunities for further improvement, Brussels is experiencing anger and violence from many Muslim immigrants.

Perhaps this sense of entitlement is keeping some Muslim immigrants from appreciating their host country and working to take advantage of the opportunities they've been offered?

If so, then once again,we see how when ANY religion establishes an "us vs. them" mentality - and Islam is guilty of this - problems often ensue.

 

[Sunstone]

I agree with you about the dangers of an us vs. them attitude, and that Islam is one of the religions that promote such an attitude. I'm not sure, however, whether the anger that many Muslims feel in Brussels is rooted in that. European countries in general are notorious for failing to assimilate their Muslim populations. It's said you can live for generations in some of them and not be accepted socially or rise into the middle class economically. That might be a more important reason than us vs. them thinking for the anger of Muslims in Brussels.

 

[LuisDantas]

I agree with @Sunstone

From my experience, how exactly they live is far less of a factor in hostility and resentment than how they contrast with the "locals";

Even more significant is how much perspective they feel of being better integrated eventually.

 

[icehorse]

I agree with you about the dangers of an us vs. them attitude, and that Islam is one of the religions that promote such an attitude. I'm not sure, however, whether the anger that many Muslims feel in Brussels is rooted in that. European countries in general are notorious for failing to assimilate their Muslim populations. It's said you can live for generations in some of them and not be accepted socially or rise into the middle class economically. That might be a more important reason than us vs. them thinking for the anger of Muslims in Brussels.

Do you have knowledge to compare the Muslim experience to other recent immigrant populations? The Sikhs? Indians?

I acknowledge that it's hard to get unbiased reports, but it seems as though other groups have managed to integrate with far less upset?

 

[icehorse]

I agree with @Sunstone

From my experience, how exactly they live is far less of a factor in hostility and resentment than how they contrast with the "locals";

Even more significant is how much perspective they feel of being better integrated eventually.

Can you restate this last sentence, I'm not understanding it?

 

[LuisDantas]

As a youngster, I lived a fair while in Rio de Janeiro. A culture with a long and recent history of slave owners, and that has the social and economical tensions to show for it.

To this day we suffer the consequences of the perception that "blacks" should not "mix" with more "civilized" people. Our largely implicit racism makes it so that a sizeable population is all but assured from birth that they will never be perceived as worth of the same opportunities as everyone else - nor will they even have the poor consolation of being explicitly forbidden those.

When whole communities are seen as less deserving and have little hope of changing that perception, all the while dealing with their supposed betters (which tend to be very mediocre people indeed) every day, hostility is actually necessary.

 

[icehorse]

As a youngster, I lived a fair while in Rio de Janeiro. A culture with a long and recent history of slave owners, and that has the social and economical tensions to show for it.

To this day we suffer the consequences of the perception that "blacks" should not "mix" with more "civilized" people. Our largely implicit racism makes it so that a sizeable population is all but assured from birth that they will never be perceived as worth of the same opportunities as everyone else - nor will they even have the poor consolation of being explicitly forbidden those.

When whole communities are seen as less deserving and have little hope of changing that perception, all the while dealing with their supposed betters (which tend to be very mediocre people indeed) every day, hostility is actually necessary.

I can understand the situation you relate in Rio.

Can you compare the recent immigration experience in Europe for Sikhs, Indians and Muslims? Would all of these groups encounter similar difficulties?

 

[LuisDantas]

I can understand the situation you relate in Rio.

Can you compare the recent immigration experience in Europe for Sikhs, Indians and Muslims? Would all of these groups encounter similar difficulties?

I must assume they would, for social integration is as difficult as it is necessary.

Lacking a common language, as I understand to be the usual situation for those migrants, would make integration that much more difficult.

Nor is it a one-generation thing, either. While the offspring is likely to learn the local language early on, that is hardly enough to remove the barriers. And it brings some hardships of its own. Japanese ancestry Brazilians are admired, but also face a lot of internal conflict among themselves. It can be very difficult for a family to accept that their children are capable of holding extended conversations with people that they just don't understand.

Then again, the situations are not directly comparable.

Proportionally, there are far fewer Muslims in Brazil than in, say, France. Serious as our integrational challenges are, they are not really influenced by belief matters to any significant degree. Beyond a palpable but somewhat ashamed discrimination of afrodescendants, even racism is somewhat rare here.

But we are ethnically amorphous in the first place, and lack any true culture to speak of, Nor are we seen with particular suspicion by most Arabs or Muslims. I'm surprised to learn that ISIS threatens to attack us this year. It makes no sense from a public relations perspective, for Brazil is just about as sympathetic to Islam as a non-Islamic country can possibly be. Nor is there any justification for resentment even in our distant past. It is not like we ever invaded any Middle Eastern countries or anything.

 

[Augustus]

the author claims that in Brussels, many Muslim immigrants are poor, but they are much better off than they were in their home countries, no poorer than many others in Brussels,

Belgium is a bit of a unique case.

In Belgium, anybody who does not speak both Flemish and French will find it hard to be a successful professional.

Muslim immigrants tend not to speak Flemish meaning many avenues are automatically closed to them, more so than in other European nations.

If so, then once again,we see how when ANY religion establishes an "us vs. them" mentality - and Islam is guilty of this - problems often ensue.

Unfortunately, an us and them mentality is about the most human thing you can imagine. If it isn't one thing, it will be another.

Seeing it as a religious issue misses this point.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

To this day we suffer the consequences of the perception that "blacks" should not "mix" with more "civilized" people. Our largely implicit racism makes it so that a sizeable population is all but assured from birth that they will never be perceived as worth of the same opportunities as everyone else - nor will they even have the poor consolation of being explicitly forbidden those.

To some extent, I see the same thing here. Though it was just under a century ago, the largest KKK rally ever was held here, but still today there are still many who believe whites and blacks should not mix. There is a sizeable black population, but they mostly live in the poorer parts of town, and you tend to see them working in places like fast food and other low-wage dead end jobs, and very few of them in positions of "prestige." I even occasionally get warnings not to go through the "dark part of town" because people believe all sorts of horrible things will happen to me, but the closest thing to a bad thing that has happened to me was a driver not paying attention and almost hitting my car, but that tends to happen anywhere in a town filled with dumb *** drivers.
And there is also an increase in bitterness towards Mexicans immigrants and those with Mexican heritage, especially as more things are including both the English and Spanish languages printed on them. But one key element that makes blacks and Mexicans not have to face a reality that is fundamentally different than what is faced by Muslims is Muslims are not only widely hated, they are widely feared. Mexican immigrants (but never British or Canadian or any others) are frequently accused of draining the budget by leeching up all these social benefits that they realistically just are not getting, but I've yet to hear of any cases where it was believed a Mexican or black fast-food worker is going to poison food.

 

[icehorse]

I'm happy to conclude that immigration isn't an easy path. Whether it's to SA, NA or Europe.

My question is whether in the informal immigration experiment that Europe has become, can we compare and contrast the experience of Muslims immigrants to other groups such as Sikhs and Indians, and perhaps others.

Augustus, as we've discussed before, I think that the second you label Islam as a religion, you've already made a big mistake. But that's a tangent.

 

[Augustus]

Augustus, as we've discussed before, I think that the second you label Islam as a religion, you've already made a big mistake. But that's a tangent.

Yeah, I keep forgetting that I live in a totalitarian theocracy. But that's a tangent.

 

[LuisDantas]

You may want to consider India's experience with Partition as a data point. If nothing else, it strongly indicates that Muslims do not really tend to become accepting and integrated on their own, even and arguably particularly when given political autonomy.

I can't say much about the current migrancy situation in Europe, because I know so little about it. I assume it to be fairly varied. For instance, France seems to have a sizeable but ill-integrated Muslim community, while I assume Spain, having more of a Islamic cultural heritage to tap into, may or may not have an easier time with their recent migrants (assuming there are any).

Sikhs, Hindus, Bharats (Indians) and other non-Muslims tend to have an easier time of it, as is to be expected IMO.

 

[icehorse]

You may want to consider India's experience with Partition as a data point. If nothing else, it strongly indicates that Muslims do not really tend to become accepting and integrated on their own, even and arguably particularly when given political autonomy.

I can't say much about the current migrancy situation in Europe, because I know so little about it. I assume it to be fairly varied. For instance, France seems to have a sizeable but ill-integrated Muslim community, while I assume Spain, having more of a Islamic cultural heritage to tap into, may or may not have an easier time with their recent migrants (assuming there are any).

Sikhs, Hindus, Bharats (Indians) and other non-Muslims tend to have an easier time of it, as is to be expected IMO.

I'm curious to understand more about your last sentence, why would we expect this?

 

[LuisDantas]

I'm curious to understand more about your last sentence, why would we expect this?

Islam has more of a political ambition, a pseudo-elitist undercurrent and an oppressive streak than most other religions.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Islam has more of a political ambition, a pseudo-elitist undercurrent and an oppressive streak than most other religions.

This can also definitely be read into Christianity, and indeed is a crucial theme in understanding a significant portion of European history. Asian history shows how peculiar our species can be when it comes to attaching the divine and political powers, as even natural disasters or favorable seasons were interpreted through political lens. Even the peaceful movements of Gandhi and Dr. King were not without violence. The Koran, much like the Bible, do have their points of decency and tolerance, but they also contain things that no civilized society should ever strive for. Though there are Radical Muslims in those areas, it can't be summed up as a problem with Islam, not only because of the majority of peaceful Muslims and those fighting for fundamental reforms, but also because of the Western and Russian imperialism that has lead to great instability and violent revolts for over a century now. Many Middle Eastern countries did not even get to draw or decide their own boundaries--something the British and French took upon themselves to do--some of them, such as Iraq, didn't even get to establish their own government, and even since ancient times there has been a great deal of economic importance placed on the Middle East by people who would otherwise have had no interest in the area.
Nothing justifies their terrorists attacks, especially in lands outside of their own, but at the same time we have to accept that our governments (well, America, British, Russia...I don't think Brazil has had much involvement) and corporations are adding to the problems and making it that much harder for the people of the Middle East to take care of their own problems because there are too many outsiders trying to tell them what to do, and in some cases telling them what they will do.

 

[Sunstone]

Do you have knowledge to compare the Muslim experience to other recent immigrant populations? The Sikhs? Indians?

I acknowledge that it's hard to get unbiased reports, but it seems as though other groups have managed to integrate with far less upset?

Great questions!

 

[Sapiens]

I believe I understand that Islam teaches Muslims that they are closer to God than all other people, correct? And also that men are superior to women. This could perhaps be summarized by saying that Islam teaches Muslim men that they are entitled to success.

In the article linked to below, the author claims that in Brussels, many Muslim immigrants are poor, but they are much better off than they were in their home countries, no poorer than many others in Brussels, and much better off than people in other parts of Europe, for example Spain. In spite of this relative improvement, and in spite of opportunities for further improvement, Brussels is experiencing anger and violence from many Muslim immigrants.

Perhaps this sense of entitlement is keeping some Muslim immigrants from appreciating their host country and working to take advantage of the opportunities they've been offered?

If so, then once again,we see how when ANY religion establishes an "us vs. them" mentality - and Islam is guilty of this - problems often ensue.

A new immigrant group does not get to reap the advantages of their new homeland until they have assimilated to the degree that the host peoples are convinced that the new immigrants do not pose a threat to the current way of life. That's just the way it is. Some Muslim groups seem to understand this (e.g., Pakistanis) others (mainly Arab) do not.

I think that you are correct, combine a sense of superiority that makes assimilation difficult and there is not much chance for them to join the mainstream. The fact that the "rejection" is, to a large degree, self-imposed is not understood.

 

[icehorse]

Shadow Wolf -

Since historically other religions have shared some of these bad attributes, are you arguing that we should tolerate these problems in 2016?

As far as the west's negative influence in the ME, that is undoubtedly a factor. But it seems you're overlooking the last 1400 years of ME history and blinding yourself to the ME's many long standing, ongoing, and self-inflicted difficulties?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Since historically other religions have shared some of these bad attributes, are you arguing that we should tolerate these problems in 2016?

You apparently missed when I said they contain things that shouldn't be a part of a civilized society. Tolerate them in 2016? My first though is it isn't 2016 to everyone, and all we can do is encourage. We can't try and force them to abandon their ways, because it has had and is having dire consequences.

As far as the west's negative influence in the ME, that is undoubtedly a factor. But it seems you're overlooking the last 1400 years of ME history and blinding yourself to the ME's many long standing, ongoing, and self-inflicted difficulties?

For much of that time they were unified under the Ottoman Empire, and though it was far from perfect or ideal, they just did not have many of the problems we see today, and they even made advances in education, mathematics, science, and medicine. And it goes without saying that at the same time Europeans and most Asians were also butchering each other, and the West itself hasn't quiet made it a full century without any major internal wars against each other, and the German state we know today is literally the longest-standing German borders throughout its history. And trade between the West and the East still put a high degree of economic importance on the Middle East.
Really, it's a long and complicated subjected. Such internal conflicts have been going on long before Islam existed, but the key elements is remembering is that it's not Islam, but radical interpretations of the Koran, leaders who rule with an iron fist, and the political, social, and economic fallout over England, Russian, and America being too involved with someone else's internal affairs.
Ultimately, it is a tragedy. But I'd rather them blow themselves up than traveling abroad to blow others up and our continued involvement is provoking such a response, and we should help not by dropping bombs but rather by promoting the ideas of Islamic reformers rather than being a total outsider trying to tell them what to do. We just cannot fight their pending revolutionary wars for them, and places like India, Paris, and Boston have been part of the prices paid for the outside involvement that has been going on.