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Islam rejects meritocracies?
- Thread starter icehorse
- Start date
Augustus
…
The problem is that immigration/integration is influenced by numerous dynamics. It is reductionist to say it is because 'Islam rejects meritocracies'. To start identifying particular characteristics of a religion to blame, even before it has been established whether the religion as a whole has a significant effect is not really feasible. Also numerous factors have to be analysed before any claim becomes anything other than pure speculation.
American Muslims tend to be pretty well integrated and of above average wealth (I think), this is due to the nature of the immigrants, middle class professionals immigrating in relatively small numbers. European Muslims tend to be from poorer backgrounds who immigrated to fill labour shortages in the post war years.
They also immigrated in large numbers from specific areas/regions. i.e. not just Pakistan or Bangladesh, but specific parts of Pakistan or Bangladesh, etc. Often they lived in relatively homogenous communities based around traditional power structures. Many of these communities were badly affected by the decline of traditional manufacturing industry. There are cultural, economic, social, community and class dynamics that can be highly significant.
Then you have the attitude of the 'host' country towards immigrant communities to factor into the equation.
There are countless questions that need to be answered:
Do Muslim Indians integrate in a significantly different manner to Hindu Indians of a similar background? Do middle class Muslims immigrating from countries without a significant diaspora integrate less successfully than working class non-Muslims from countries with a significant diaspora? Which Muslims have integrated well and what characteristics do they have? How does this compare to the communities who are less integrated? Are Muslims worse at integrating than Western immigrants (ex-pats) are when they go to other countries? etc. etc.
Hey Augustus -
What kinds of stats would lead you to believe that it's accurate and useful reductionism?
In other words, yes of course I understand that it's a complex system. That said, in many domains we tackle the problem of finding important factors in complex systems. To me it's a smoke screen to contend that "because complex system", no conclusions can be drawn.
What kinds of stats would lead you to believe that it's accurate and useful reductionism?
In other words, yes of course I understand that it's a complex system. That said, in many domains we tackle the problem of finding important factors in complex systems. To me it's a smoke screen to contend that "because complex system", no conclusions can be drawn.
Augustus
…
Reductionism is never useful or accurate.
I'm doubting the wisdom of drawing conclusions before examining the issues, not that it is impossible to draw tentative conclusions after a rigorous analysis. It is certainly plausible that culture plays some role, but what aspect of culture, and in what combination with what other variables?
This especially applies to highlighting specific aspects of Islam, before making a case that Islam, in general, is the most significant factor. Even more so, as you don't believe it ever necessary to qualify statements about 'Islam' as you view it as sufficiently homogenous to be treated as a single entity.
You haven't made much of a case that 'Islam rejects meritocracy', or about why 'Islam' is (one of) the most significant factor(s) in poor integration, and haven't made any case that it is specifically 'rejection of meritocracy' that is a significant factor in why 'Islam' stops people integrating.
It is sort of like applying a very contentious theory like the 'protestant work ethic', before even establishing if Protestant countries were more successful.
Isn't the burden of proof on the person making the claim, especially when making seriously pejorative claims about a large group of people?
Hey Augustus,
Well many would argue that there's not even a problem, so that's step one. If you get past that, then isn't it logical to look for potential sources for the problem? I don't live in Europe, I'm dependent on "the news". It seems to me that it's typically viewed as politically incorrect to lay blame at the feet of religion. But being PC doesn't make it accurate, it just makes it PC. So from my perspective we have the PC news, and then we have another channel of news that reports on a steady stream of bad episodes. Grooming, rape, sharia schools, mass groping, no-go zones, and sometimes violence. There are loads of folks in Europe who have connected these dots, and who are looking for solutions. What if we acknowledged that beliefs impact behaviors, and we took a close look at the beliefs that people are being indoctrinated with?
Well many would argue that there's not even a problem, so that's step one. If you get past that, then isn't it logical to look for potential sources for the problem? I don't live in Europe, I'm dependent on "the news". It seems to me that it's typically viewed as politically incorrect to lay blame at the feet of religion. But being PC doesn't make it accurate, it just makes it PC. So from my perspective we have the PC news, and then we have another channel of news that reports on a steady stream of bad episodes. Grooming, rape, sharia schools, mass groping, no-go zones, and sometimes violence. There are loads of folks in Europe who have connected these dots, and who are looking for solutions. What if we acknowledged that beliefs impact behaviors, and we took a close look at the beliefs that people are being indoctrinated with?
Augustus
…
I'm not ruling anything out, but let's go back in time:
Can you provide me with some evidence that what you are doing now is qualitatively different from what people used to say about black communities?
Or maybe Irish communities in Britain?
Or Italian communities in America?
You are pointing to a visible negative, and asserting a cause without actually making any case for it or providing any evidence. This is what happened in these previous examples too. Why is your argument superior to these previous arguments that were clearly massively flawed?
Hey Augustus,
The executive summary is that beliefs impact behaviors.
IMO the most parsimonious reading of Islamic scripture is that over and over and over again, Muslims are instructed to be:
- supremacist
- misogynistic
- homophobic
- anti-semetic
- seeking to create theocracies
We might see a few of these instructions in the other cultures you mentioned, but none are as off-the-chart as Islam. I have read report after report of misogynistic behaviors within the Muslim world and coming from Muslim immigrants. We see poll after poll reporting that Muslims are much more homophobic and anti-semetic than their hosts. We see a steady stream of Muslim initiatives to introduce Sharia into western cultures.
No doubt that historically the integration of immigrants has been difficult. Is that a reason for us to accept these difficulties in 2016?
Back to the OP - rejecting meritocracies seems more plausible if you're a young man who's been brought up to believe that Muslims the the closest to God and that women are second class to men. If you believe that, it's plausible to think that you believe you're entitled to success, and shouldn't have to work for it. It's just a theory, but it's consistent with a lot of data.
The executive summary is that beliefs impact behaviors.
IMO the most parsimonious reading of Islamic scripture is that over and over and over again, Muslims are instructed to be:
- supremacist
- misogynistic
- homophobic
- anti-semetic
- seeking to create theocracies
We might see a few of these instructions in the other cultures you mentioned, but none are as off-the-chart as Islam. I have read report after report of misogynistic behaviors within the Muslim world and coming from Muslim immigrants. We see poll after poll reporting that Muslims are much more homophobic and anti-semetic than their hosts. We see a steady stream of Muslim initiatives to introduce Sharia into western cultures.
No doubt that historically the integration of immigrants has been difficult. Is that a reason for us to accept these difficulties in 2016?
Back to the OP - rejecting meritocracies seems more plausible if you're a young man who's been brought up to believe that Muslims the the closest to God and that women are second class to men. If you believe that, it's plausible to think that you believe you're entitled to success, and shouldn't have to work for it. It's just a theory, but it's consistent with a lot of data.
Augustus
…
I can agree on this.
My point was that people made exactly the same arguments that you are making now about Muslims about these communities. Read about what they used to say about Italian immigrants and Catholics.
"Newspapers and Protestant clergymen, including Lyman Beecher, co-founder of the American Temperance Society, swelled the outcry, warning the influx would take jobs, spread disease and crime and plot a coup to install the Pope in power."
They even have your 'theocracy'...
If you want to make the argument that 'All the times people said this in the past they were wrong due to bigotry, but this time it really is happening' you really need to provide arguments that are qualitatively different and are based on actual evidence.
I don't think you are a bigot, but you are currently making the same arguments that were made by bigots in the past and that turned out to be incorrect. Why are your arguments better than theirs? I haven't seen any evidence so far.
Would you say that Muslims in America 'aren't Muslim enough' to explain why they appear to be 'working for it'?
Contrary to popular perceptions, the condition of Muslims in the U.S. is very good. Among South Asians in the country, the large Pakistani American community stands out as particularly well educated and prosperous, with education and income levels exceeding those of U.S.-born whites. Many are professionals, especially in medicine (they account for 2.7-5% of America’s physicians),[104][105] scientists, engineers, and financial analysts, and there are also a large number of entrepreneurs. There are more than 15,000 medical doctors practicing medicine in the USA who are of Pakistani origin alone[106]and the number of Pakistani American millionaires was reported to be in the thousands... 45 percent of immigrant Muslims report annual household income levels of $50,000 or higher. This compares to the national average of 44 percent. Immigrant Muslims are well represented among higher-income earners, with 19 percent claiming annual household incomes of $100,000 or higher (compared to 16 percent for the Muslim population as a whole and 17 percent for the U.S. average). This is likely due to the strong concentration of Muslims in professional, managerial, and technical fields, especially in information technology, education, medicine, law, and the corporate world.[108] - Wikipedia
If your argument is true, why aren't these Muslims underperforming versus non-Muslims?
Why don't you share it with us then?
Hey Augustus,
I DO agree that the US isn't yet experiencing what Europe is experiencing. And perhaps the US never will. But there seems to be a fair bit of historical evidence that when Muslims reach a certain percentage of a population, they often assert the more problematic aspects of Islam more forcefully. I would ask you to name a Muslim majority country that's truly flourishing.
I DO agree that the US isn't yet experiencing what Europe is experiencing. And perhaps the US never will. But there seems to be a fair bit of historical evidence that when Muslims reach a certain percentage of a population, they often assert the more problematic aspects of Islam more forcefully. I would ask you to name a Muslim majority country that's truly flourishing.
Augustus
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But surely their sense of entitlement should make US Muslims underperform other religions should it not? Or are you saying they aren't 'true' Muslims as they haven't reached a critical mass yet?
Also, you are still not offering any support to your statements. You say there is historical evidence, but choose not to present it.
What about the difference between 1st and 2nd generation immigrants for example?
We are moving into a completely different topic area now with completely different dynamics.
Also trying to identify fundamental truths about the nature of peoples relying on a brief snapshot of history is also problematic as things tend to be cyclical. They still haven't killed anywhere near as many people as the tolerant and civilised Europeans and Americans have over the past 100 years for example.
This is a different subject though.
MARCELLO
Transitioning from male to female
Where do you live actually?Yeah, I keep forgetting that I live in a totalitarian theocracy. But that's a tangent.
Augustus
…
I prefer not to say. Some part of the 'Islamic world' though.
MARCELLO
Transitioning from male to female
Me,too ,not a citizen but expat.
First Baseman
Retired athlete
I think "meritocracy" is defined differently in the Islamic world. Merit is measured in terms of how strictly one adheres to Islam rather than one's other accomplishments.
Augustus
…
I think you have never been to the 'Islamic world' (which is remarkably diverse anyway)...
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First Baseman
Retired athlete
I haven't. So what? What I think is what I think.
Augustus
…
Fair enough, there is no requirement for your thoughts to be based on knowledge or reality
First Baseman
Retired athlete
Fair enough, there is no requirement for your thoughts to be based on what Augustus says is knowledge or reality.
FIFY
Perhaps you meant "heterogeneous"?
Augustus,
What if, once and for all, you accept the fact that I understand that Muslims are diverse. None of these discussions are predicated on 100% regularity. All of these discussions are an analysis of trends and statistics.
Stepping back, I think that the world is currently saddled with many bad ideas. Oligarchy is a bad idea. Theocracy is a bad idea. Unlimited population growth is a bad idea. Fouling our ecosystem is a bad idea. Islamic doctrine contains many bad ideas. The fact that it hasn't caused as many deaths in the last 100 hundred years as some other idea, is no defense. My understanding is that over the last 1400 years, Islam and Christianity are BOTH responsible for the deaths of 200-300 million people. Does that mean we should hold neither culpable? Does that mean we cannot criticize one without criticizing the other?
What if, once and for all, you accept the fact that I understand that Muslims are diverse. None of these discussions are predicated on 100% regularity. All of these discussions are an analysis of trends and statistics.
Stepping back, I think that the world is currently saddled with many bad ideas. Oligarchy is a bad idea. Theocracy is a bad idea. Unlimited population growth is a bad idea. Fouling our ecosystem is a bad idea. Islamic doctrine contains many bad ideas. The fact that it hasn't caused as many deaths in the last 100 hundred years as some other idea, is no defense. My understanding is that over the last 1400 years, Islam and Christianity are BOTH responsible for the deaths of 200-300 million people. Does that mean we should hold neither culpable? Does that mean we cannot criticize one without criticizing the other?