Islam, the Qur'an and Evolution

[Gharib]

Verse #3 and it's meaning

And on the Day when He will gather them (all) together (and say): "O you assembly of jinn! Many did you mislead of men," and their Auliya' (friends and helpers) amongst men will say: "Our Lord! We benefited one from the other, but now we have reached our appointed term which You did appoint for us." He will say: "The Fire be your dwelling-place, you will dwell therein forever, except as Allah may will. Certainly your Lord is All-Wise, All-Knowing."
(Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #128)

Allah says,
`Mention, O Muhammad, in what you convey and warn,' that, on the Day when He will gather them (all) together.
gather the Jinns and their loyal supporters from mankind who used to worship them in this life, seek refuge with them, obey them and inspire each other with adorned, deceitful speech.

Allah will proclaim then,
O you assembly of Jinn! Many did you mislead of men,

So the Ayah;
(Many did you mislead of men) refers to their misguiding and leading them astray.

Allah also said;
Did I not command you, O Children of Adam, that you should not worship Shaytan. Verily, he is a plain enemy to you. And that you should worship Me. That is the straight path. And indeed he (Shaytan) did lead astray a great multitude of you. Did you not, then, understand. (36:60-62)
And,
and their friends among the people will say: "Our Lord! We benefited one from the other...''
The friends of the Jinns among humanity will give this answer to Allah, after Allah chastises them for being misguided by the Jinns.

Al-Hasan commented,
"They benefited from each other when the Jinns merely commanded and mankind obeyed.''

Ibn Jurayj said,
"During the time of Jahiliyyah, a man would reach a land and proclaim, `I seek refuge with the master (Jinn) of this valley,' and this is how they benefited from each other. They used this as an excuse for them on the Day of Resurrection.''

Therefore, the Jinns benefit from humans since humans revere the Jinns by invoking them for help. The Jinns would then proclaim, "We became the masters of both mankind and the Jinns.''
but now we have reached our appointed term which You did appoint for us.
meaning, death, according to As-Suddi.

He (Allah) will say:
"The Fire be your dwelling place...''
where you will reside and live, you and your friends,
you will dwell therein forever.
and will never depart except what Allah may will.
except as Allah may will. Certainly your Lord is All-Wise, All-Knowing."

Verse #4 and it's meaning

And so We have appointed for every Prophet enemies ـ Shayatin (devils) among mankind and Jinn, inspiring one another with adorned speech as a delusion (or by way of deception). (6:112)

Ibn Jarir said,
"The devils of every creation are the mischievous among them. There are both human devils and Jinn devils.

Allah says,
And so We have appointed for every Prophet enemies -- Shayatin among mankind and Jinn, inspiring one another with adorned speech as a delusion.

Allah says, just as We made enemies for you, O Muhammad, who will oppose and rebel against you and become your adversaries, We also made enemies for every Prophet who came before you. Therefore, do not be saddened by this fact.

Allah said in other Ayat:
Verily, Messengers were denied before you, but with patience they bore the denial, and they were hurt... (6:34)
Nothing is said to you except what was said to the Messengers before you. Verily, your Lord is the Possessor of forgiveness, and (also) the Possessor of painful punishment. (41:43)
Thus have We made for every Prophet an enemy among the criminals. (25:31)

Waraqah bin Nawfal said to Allah's Messenger, "None came with what you came with but he was the subject of enmity.''

Allah's statement,
(Shayatin among mankind..., refers to (enemies...), meaning, the Prophets have enemies among the devils of mankind and the devils of the Jinns.

The word, Shaytan, describes one who is dissimilar to his kind due to his or her wickedness. Indeed, only the Shayatin, may Allah humiliate and curse them, from among mankind and the Jinns oppose the Messengers.

Abdur-Razzaq said that Ma`mar narrated that Qatadahcommented on Allah's statement, (Shayatin (devils) among mankind and Jinn...),
"There are devils among the Jinns and devils among mankind who inspire each other.''

Allah's statement,
inspiring one another with adorned speech as a delusion.
means, they inspire each other with beautified, adorned speech that deceives the ignorant who hear it.

Verse #5 and it's meaning

And I (Allah) created not the jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me (Alone).
(Adh-Dhariyat, Chapter #51, Verse #56)

Allah the Exalted and Most Honored said,
And I created not the Jinn and mankind except that they should worship Me.
meaning, `I, Allah, only created them so that I order them to worship Me, not that I need them.'
Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn Abbas commented on the Ayah, (...except that they should worship Me)
meaning, "So that they worship Me, willingly or unwillingly.''

Allah the Exalted said,
I seek not any provision from them nor do I ask that they should feed Me. Verily, Allah is the All-Provider, Owner of power, the Most Strong.

Imam Ahmad recorded that Abdullah bin Mas`ud said, "The Messenger of Allah taught the following:
`Verily, I am the Provider, Owner of power, the Most Strong.'
Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi and An-Nasa'i also collected this Hadith. At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan Sahih.''

The meaning of this Ayah (51:56) is that, Allah theExalted, the Blessed created the creatures so that they worship Him Alone without partners. Those who obey Him will be rewarded with the best rewards, while those who disobey Him will receive the worst punishment from Him. Allah stated that He does not need creatures, but rather, they are in need of Him in all conditions. He is alone their Creator and Provider.

Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that theMessenger of Allah said,
Allah the Exalted said, "O Son of Adam! Busy yourself in worshipping Me, and I will fill your chest with riches and dissipate your meekness. Otherwise, I will fill your chest with distracting affairs and will not do away with your meekness.''
At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah collected this Hadith and At-Tirmidhi said, "Hasan Gharib.''

The statement of Allah the Exalted,
And verily, for those who do wrong, there is a portion,
indicates that they will receive their due share of the torment,
like the evil portion (which came for) their likes (of old); so let them not ask Me to hasten on!
let them not ask that the punishment is rushed to them, for it will surely come,
Then woe to those who disbelieve from their Day which they have been promised.
meaning, the Day of Resurrection

 

[Gharib]

Some hadith that also indicate that by jinn the Qur'an and hadith do not refer to bacteria:

1. Narrated Abu Huraira: "The Prophet said, "Last night a big demon (afreet) from the jinns came to me and wanted to interrupt my prayers (or said something similar) but Allah enabled me to overpower him. I wanted to fasten him to one of the pillars of the mosque so that all of you could See him in the morning but I remembered the statement of my brother Solomon (as stated in Quran): My Lord! Forgive me and bestow on me a kingdom such as shall not belong to anybody after me (38.35)." The sub narrator Rauh said, "He (the demon) was dismissed humiliated." (Book #8, Hadith #450m)

2. Narrated 'Abdul Rahman: Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri told my father, "I see you liking sheep and the wilderness. So whenever you are with your sheep or in the wilderness and you want to pronounce Adhan for the prayer raise your voice in doing so, for whoever hears the Adhan, whether a human being, a jinn or any other creature, will be a witness for you on the Day of Resurrection." Abu Said added, "I heard it (this narration) from Allah's Apostle." (Book #11, Hadith #583)

3. Narrated Abu Huraira: That once he was in the, company of the Prophet carrying a water pot for his ablution and for cleaning his private parts. While he was following him carrying it(i.e. the pot), the Prophet said, "Who is this?" He said, "I am Abu Huraira." The Prophet said, "Bring me stones in order to clean my private parts, and do not bring any bones or animal dung." Abu Huraira went on narrating: So I brought some stones, carrying them in the corner of my robe till I put them by his side and went away. When he finished, I walked with him and asked, "What about the bone and the animal dung?" He said, "They are of the food of jinns. The delegate of jinns of (the city of) Nasibin came to me--and how nice those jinns were--and asked me for the remains of the human food. I invoked Allah for them that they would never pass by a bone or animal dung but find food on them." (Book #58, Hadith #200)

4. Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet used to say, "I seek refuge (with YOU) by Your 'Izzat, None has the right to be worshipped but You Who does not die while the jinns and the human beings die." (Book #93, Hadith #480)

 

[Rational_Mind]

In the Jinn section of part 5 of Mirza Tahir Ahmad’s book Revelation, Rationality, Knowledge and Truth the following verses are mentioned:

And the Jinn We created before that (the creation of man) from blasts of fire (naris-samum). [15:27]
And the Jinn He created from the flame of fire. [55:15]

He gives an explanation of the literal meaning of the word jinn as follows:
Arabic lexicon mentions the following as the possible meanings of the word jinn. It literally means anything which has the connotation of concealment, invisibility, seclusion and remoteness. It also has the connotation of thick shades and dark shadows. That is why the word 'jannah' (from the same root word) is employed by the Quran to denote paradise, which would be full of thick, heavily shaded gardens. The word jinn is also applicable to snakes which habitually remain hidden from common view and live a life secluded from other animals in rock crevices and earthen holes. It is also applied to women who observe segregation and to such chieftains as keep their distance from the common people. The inhabitants of remote, inaccessible mountains are likewise referred to as jinn. Hence, anything which lies beyond the reach of common sight or is invisible to the unaided naked eye, could well be described by this word.

Then he speaks about what jinns eat and from it he concludes that the Qur’an and Hadith refer to bacteria by the word jinn and not secluded humans, or snakes or anything else that is not bacteria:
This proposition is fully endorsed by a tradition of the Holy Prophetsa in which he strongly admonishes people not to use dried up lumps of dung or bones of dead animals for cleaning themselves after attending to the call of nature because they are food for the jinn. As we use toilet paper now, at that time people used lumps of earth, stones or any dry article close at hand to clean themselves. We can safely infer therefore, that what he referred to as jinn was nothing other than some invisible organisms, which feed on rotting bones, dung etc. Remember that the concept of bacteria and viruses was not till then born. No man had even the vaguest idea about the existence of such invisible tiny creatures. Amazingly it is to these that the Holy Prophetsa referred. The Arabic language could offer him no better, more appropriate expression than the word jinn.

He goes on to say:
“Having established that the word jinn applies here to some type of bacterial organisms,....”

I think you unfortunately based your entire argument on misunderstanding. If you had read it a bit more carefully it never said that Jinn only refers to bacteria. It said about the case where Muhammad (SAW) (in hadith) said to not use dung and bones to clean yourselves. So it was "establishing" that it can definitely refer to bacteria. Then went onto prove that science is in line with the Quran on the creation of bacteria which as one scientist put it, source of energy was radiated from sun, effective explaining the meaning of creation from fire. Now Jinn can also refer to secluded men and creatures that hide. It all depends on the context. You unfortunately thought that it is only bacteria. Sorry I would advise you to read some more on it and ask question before you try to prove it wrong. Please spend more time reading the sections of the book more carefully if you intent on proving another view point against the Quran.

For each verse you listed I would recommend to read the Long Commentary (Tafseer) in English here. It is also available in Urdu. It is so well explained and supported. And I would again stress here to remember that Muhammad (SAW) was sent to the Jinn (a Messenger from among yourselves) as well, so either you have to say the Quran is wrong (Nauzobillah) or your understanding is off. Verses that begin with Bismillah are counted one ahead because we feel that it would be disrespectful to the word of Allah if we do not number a verse that is part of the Quran. So please go to verse 31 if you are looking for verse 30. Except in surah AL-TAUBA which does not being with Bismillah.

 

[Gharib]

a side question, according to your opinion (or that of ahmadis in general) why doesn't Surah At Tawbah begin with Bismilah? (i know the answer to my question from the non-ahmadi perspective i just want to know your view if it is different)

regarding you post above, i may have mistakenly thought that jinn refers only to bacteria, but i have a reason for that. it says in the Qur'an that the jinn are created from fire and as far as i know you agree to those verses. on some other verses is speaks about jinn but doesn't mention "and they were created from fire" just as it says Adam was created from clay and then every time it mentions Adam it doesn't say "and he was created from clay".

in the book that you gave me the link to, which i quoted it says:
We can safely infer therefore, that what he referred to as jinn was nothing other than some invisible organisms, which feed on rotting bones, dung etc. Remember that the concept of bacteria and viruses was not till then born. No man had even the vaguest idea about the existence of such invisible tiny creatures. Amazingly it is to these that the Holy Prophet sa referred. The Arabic language could offer him no better, more appropriate expression than the word jinn.
Another important observation made by the Quran is in relation to the creation of the jinn. They are described as having been born out of blasts of fire (from the cosmos).

And the Jinn We created before that (the creation of man) from blasts of fire (naris-samum). 1

Here the adjective used to describe the nature of the particular fire from which the jinn were created is Samum, which means a blazing fire or a blast that has no smoke. 2 We find a similar statement in another Quranic verse:

And the Jinn He created from the flame of fire. 3

Having established that the word jinn applies here to some type of bacterial organisms, let us again turn our attention to the verses quoted above that speak of the jinn as having been created out of fire. The prime candidates for the application of these verses seem to be such minute organisms as drew the energy for their existence directly from hot blazes of lightning—Samum—and cosmic radiation.
Dickerson inadvertently agrees with the Quranic view when he observes that the most ancient organisms:—
'... would have lived on the energy of lightning and ultraviolet radiation ...' 4

Now based on what the above says jinn were created from fire (blasts of fire) and before humans. it says those 2 verses refer to bacteria. i'm sure we are on the same page so far, if not read the bold parts again.................. now we most surely are on the same page.

here is another question, throughout the Qur'an in your opinion, does the word jinn refer to one creature or does it refer to different kinds of creatures?

this is from the book again:

Arabic lexicon mentions the following as the possible meanings of the word jinn. It literally means anything which has the connotation of concealment, invisibility, seclusion and remoteness. It also has the connotation of thick shades and dark shadows. That is why the word 'jannah' (from the same root word) is employed by the Quran to denote paradise, which would be full of thick, heavily shaded gardens. The word jinn is also applicable to snakes which habitually remain hidden from common view and live a life secluded from other animals in rock crevices and earthen holes. It is also applied to women who observe segregation and to such chieftains as keep their distance from the common people. The inhabitants of remote, inaccessible mountains are likewise referred to as jinn. Hence, anything which lies beyond the reach of common sight or is invisible to the unaided naked eye, could well be described by this word.

if it refers to different kinds of creatures then i take it that your opinion is that the verses which say that the jinn are created from fire refer only to bacteria and not the other creatures to which the word 'jinn' would apply. can you explain what creatures Allah refers to by the word jinn in the other verses?

once you explain this then i will have a good understanding of this.

 

[Rational_Mind]

The explanation is given here for why it does not begin with Bismillah. I think this is common with other Sunni Muslims but there are so many factions with different views within other muslims sects that I cannot say which one you conform to.

Regarding Jinn I think one example would really help simplify this issue for you. The Angels can be called Jinn. It is a word that is used to express something that is concealed or prefers to hide. In the prior post I gave the example of Shaytan. Muhammad (SAW) called many things Shaytan, it can be an evil person, something not health for you, basically it is something not good for you. Another thing you should understand is that when Quran speaks on the creation of life it has the ultimate focus in the creation of man and its progress to the pinnacle of human life, Muhammad (SAW). For this reason if it talks about preliminary steps for our creation it is part of how we were made. Here I will quote from the book:

We shall begin by noting that many a time when the Quran speaks of some earlier forms of creation, it refers to them as the creation of man while whatever was created at that time had no semblance to him. In fact, all the landmarks of creation have been likewise referred to as human creations because right from the beginning it was man alone who was the ultimate object and purpose of the entire exercise of creation.

By way of example, we may consider the construction of an aeroplane for which many thousands of stages and processes are required. The designer while planning its production treats every component nuts, bolts, wings, seats and all—as the building of the aeroplane itself, which is the real object of this exercise. Nuts and bolts also have an independent purpose to serve other than just being the components of the plane. As such all the earlier stages are treated as merely preparatory to the consummation of the ultimate purpose. This aspect is highly essential to note because it is here that the Quran parts company with the biologists who believe in a haphazard evolution without a pre-set design. To these biologists the origin and evolution of life appear to have neither purpose nor design, nor a well-calculated plan of execution.

Moreover, do not take verses to hold just one understanding. The Quran is not such that if everyone sits together they would all have the same level of understanding. When it comes to laws it is clear and explicit such that any person can understand it. In other verses, your spiritual height has to do with how deeply you understand it. So do not get stuck at limiting the verses of the Quran to literal limits and only one meaning. Especially if it contradicts, as I can relate an incident where Muhammad (SAW) heard some people having a discussion over the Quran and he was very disappointed and said that people before you were destroyed who took understanding of verses such that it contradicted the scripture itself.

The verse expressing this:

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book; in it there are verses that are decisive in meaning — they are the basis of the Book — and there are others that are susceptible of different interpretations. But those in whose hearts is perversity pursue such thereof as are susceptible of different interpretations, seeking discord and seeking wrong interpretation of it. And none knows its right interpretation except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge; they say, ‘We believe in it; the whole is from our Lord.’ — And none heed except those gifted with understanding. — (3:8)

If you read this commentary on this verse here, it gives more detailed account of the incident which I described above and other accounts that are necessary to understand the verse very well. The tafseer defines the important words then gives a very good explanation.

Again, I would encourage you to read the tafseer where you feel that our views are contradicting. Such as what does Jinn mean in references to Adam (AS) and with Muhammad (SAW) being sent from among yourselves, yet he is said to be sent to the Jinn. The tafseer really explain in depth with reference to sunah, hadith and other verses.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I believe your concept of Jinn and Adam(pbuh) does not make sense at all in light of the Qur'an and Hadith. Let me give you few verses from the Qur'an that totally contradicts your explanations.

I think one reason you may have a hard time with this concept is because of the belief that Adam was the first man created by clay. This is a misconception of Muslims that entered Islamic history when new Christian converts unintentionally brought some of their old beliefs into understanding the Quran. I will just show one very clear verse to make it clear that this understanding is not without flaw. Then you will understand that creation from mud is talking about the origin of life on Earth which had the ultimate purpose of creation of mankind and ulterior motive on the best of man in Muhammad (saw). Also it is important to point out that there was not one Adam (as). This also can be understood by Quran and hadith.

Allah, the knower of the unseen has said,

“And when thy Lord said to the angels, I am about to place a vicegerent in the earth, they said, ‘Wilt Thou place therein such as will cause disorder in it, and shed blood? We glorify Thee with Thy praise and extol Thy holiness.’ He answered, I know what you know not.’ ” (2:31)

In this verse God has used the word khalifah for Adam (peace be upon him). Khalifah in Arabic means a successor. It is, therefore, clear that men had existed and lived on earth before Adam (peace be upon him) whom he succeeded. We cannot say whether original inhabitants of America, Australia, etc., are the progeny of this last Adam (peace be upon him) or of some other Adam (peace be upon him) gone before him.

In short, the Holy Quran speaks of that Adam (peace be upon him) who was appointed as Khalifah and the first Prophet of God, and who was raised for the guidance of mankind. God taught him the knowledge and made him leader of men. He was appointed a prophet in the gardens of Eden, which lay near Babylon in Iraq. It was a very fertile land abounding in its verdure and was referred to as Jannah, that is, the garden. Angels and other beings were commanded by God to obey Adam (peace be upon him). All obeyed except Iblis.

Regarding the use of the word Khalifa in verse 2:31, here is the explanation from Tafsir Ibn Kathir[1] : Khalifa here is referring not to Adam(pbuh) alone but to "people reproducing generation after generation, century after century" ... otherwise, the later part of the verse which says : "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood!" would not make sense. Did Adam(pbuh) cause mischief and blood shed (let alone on his own)?

Now on evolution...
* "We created man from sounding clay, from mud moulded into shape;And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind." (Al-Qur'an 15:26-27)

Clearly states that 'man' not 'Adam' was created from clay - that means humankind started that way.

* "O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence Allah, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for Allah ever watches over you." (Al-Qur'an 4:1)

That clearly refutes any notion of multiple Adam for mankind. At least you cannot claim that from the Qur'an. So from the two verses stated above, it is clear that Mankind was created from one man who was created from Clay - then from that one man(Adam(pbuh)) came his mate and from them countless men and women in the world.

The above also refutes any notion of humans evolving from apes. If anything, the Qur'an talks about 'reverse evolution' - or however you wanna term it. "The Qur'an makes brief mention of a group of people who were punished by God for their disobedience and transgression. “When in their insolence they transgressed [all] prohibitions, We said to them: ‘Be ye apes, despised and rejected’” (Qur'an 7:166). Many Muslim scholars interpret this to mean that these human beings were literally turned into apes by God." [2]

If you can spend a bit more time trying to determine what my response will be then it can save you time. It is important to understand concept of Jinn. You see the Quran says that Jinn were sent a prophet/messenger from among themselves and Muhammad (saw) was a prophet/messenger to Jinn and men. Studying that one can realize that orthodox understanding has misunderstood. You see that Jinn is not a specific being. It is a more wide term that can encompass Angels, Microbacteria, Snakes that hide in crevices, and Leaders that hide from public. If you take this in mind and read the Quran then all of a sudden everything makes much more sense. Similarly Shaytan is used for things not good for you. So that can be a human, or bacteria. Muhammad (saw) said to cover food and drink because Shaytan will enter. Also to clean nose with water when you wake up because again Shaytan enter when you sleep.

You clearly have misrepresented/misunderstood the difference between Angels vs. Jinns.

* According to Sahih Muslim, (14) 'A'isha reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: The Angels were born out of light and the jinns were born out of the spark of fire and Adam was born as he has been defined (in the Qur'an) for you (i. e. he is fashioned out of clay). (Book #042, Hadith #7134)
It cannot be any clearer that Mankind, Angels and Jinns are three separate and distinct creation of Allah(swt)

* "And to Allah prostrates whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth of creatures, and the angels [as well], and they are not arrogant.They fear their Lord above them, and they do what they are commanded." (Al-Qur'an 16:49-50)

"Behold! We said to the angels, "Bow down to Adam": They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!" (Al-Qur'an 18:50)

* "And there were men from mankind who sought refuge in men from the jinn, so they [only] increased them in burden." (Al Qur'an 72:6)

From the above verses, we can clearly see that Jinns have free wills and hence they have the ability to choose between good and evil. Angels don't and hence cannot disobey Allah(God) - they just follow God's commands. Also, note that Jinns have male/female/progeny just like humans, but there are no mentions of such for Angels.

References:
[1]http://www.quran4u.com/Tafsir%20Ibn%20Kathir/002%20Baqarah%20I.htm
[2]http://www.netplaces.com/understanding-islam/the-muslim-view-of-creation/creation-versus-evolution.htm

 

[Rational_Mind]

Dear brother LoverofTruth if you had read our view and researched it you would realize that some of your statements I agree with and the other I have already explained in this thread. If you beg to differ you are free to. But I humbly advise to not try to refute that which you have not researched.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Regarding the use of the word Khalifa in verse 2:31, here is the explanation from Tafsir Ibn Kathir[1] : Khalifa here is referring not to Adam(pbuh) alone but to "people reproducing generation after generation, century after century" ... otherwise, the later part of the verse which says : "Will You place therein those who will make mischief therein and shed blood!" would not make sense. Did Adam(pbuh) cause mischief and blood shed (let alone on his own)?

If you could provide any classical Arabic lexicon where Khalifa means "generations after generations" I will be impressed. Unless otherwise, this argument alone will suffice. If you want to discuss it is important to first understand my view before refuting it.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Dear brother LoverofTruth if you had read our view and researched it you would realize that some of your statements I agree with and the other I have already explained in this thread. If you beg to differ you are free to. But I humbly advise to not try to refute that which you have not researched.

Sorry that I do not have time to read your views listed in some other links. That's why we are here - to put our point of views here and debate them.

I am only refuting your point of view which you stated in those two comments. I clearly refuted those ideas such as Jinns are inclusive of angels or that there could be multiple Adams etc. with Quranic verses.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Sorry that I do not have time to read your views listed in some other links. That's why we are here - to put our point of views here and debate them.

I am only refuting your point of view which you stated in those two comments. I clearly refuted those ideas such as Jinns are inclusive of angels or that there could be multiple Adams etc. with Quranic verses.

It is hard to refute that which you have little familiarity with. So I would advise you to put in the effort. As you "refutations" are quite invalid.

 

[loverOfTruth]

If you could provide any classical Arabic lexicon where Khalifa means "generations after generations" I will be impressed. Unless otherwise, this argument alone will suffice. If you want to discuss it is important to first understand my view before refuting it.

What I quoted from Ibn Kathir is not translation, it is interpretation of the Qur'an which explained the verse by using the term 'generations after generations' what it refers to. So even if the verse says 'successor' it doesn't prove what you are trying to prove here. Because what it is saying is Adam(pbuh) is being put on earth as a Successor of Allah(swt) as in a successive authority/representative of Allah(swt) - does not in any way mean he had human ancestors just like the Caliphs of Islam are the 'successive authorities' after the Prophet(pbuh) but Prophet(pbuh) was not necessarily their biological ancestor.

Not to mention that you are ignoring the later part of the verse which says : "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood". Clearly it is referring to a chain of 'successive authorities'[Mankind] who would eventually follow from Adam(pbuh). So if mankind was already there before Adam(pbuh) coming to earth, you think they were innocent without making any mischief and only the descendants of Adam(pbuh) are this bad ? Otherwise, the statement of the Angels would not make any sense.

So either way your argument using verse 2:30 is not valid in this matter.

 

[loverOfTruth]

It is hard to refute that which you have little familiarity with. So I would advise you to put in the effort. As you "refutations" are quite invalid.

If it is invalid, please try refuting it with evidences for everyone to see rather than pointing people to far off sites/resources without providing any argument - prove Jinns include Angels from the Qur'an, prove there could be multiple Adams from the Qur'an. I have already given proof from the Qur'an how Adam(pbuh) is the first born from the Qur'an and how Jinns and Angels are totally separate creations.

 

[Rational_Mind]

What I quoted from Ibn Kathir is not translation, it is interpretation of the Qur'an which explained the verse by using the term 'generations after generations' what it refers to.

I completely disagree on this interpretation. As there is nothing in the verse to suggest "generations after generations". Moreover, the word "Khalifa" has never been used in that sense in regards to a Prophet of God.

So even if the verse says 'successor' it doesn't prove what you are trying to prove here. Because what it is saying is Adam(pbuh) is being put on earth as a Successor of Allah(swt) as in a successive authority/representative of Allah(swt) - does not in any way mean he had human ancestors just like the Caliphs of Islam are the 'successive authorities' after the Prophet(pbuh) but Prophet(pbuh) was not necessarily their biological ancestor.

There is no comparison to be made between Khalifat-e-Rashida that followed the Holy Prophet (saw) and the Adam (as) being called a Khalifa. You are trying to avoid the obvious truth. Adam (as) is called a Khalifa and a Khalifa is not needed if there are no people. Your logic is flawed, please think this through, how can there be a Prophet (as) sent when there is no person to guide? The Quran has said multiple times why Prophets are sent. It is illogical for Allah (swt) to sent a person to guide mankind when mankind doesn't even exist yet.

Not to mention that you are ignoring the later part of the verse which says : "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood". Clearly it is referring to a chain of 'successive authorities'[Mankind] who would eventually follow from Adam(pbuh). So if mankind was already there before Adam(pbuh) coming to earth, you think they were innocent without making any mischief and only the descendants of Adam(pbuh) are this bad ? Otherwise, the statement of the Angels would not make any sense.

So either way your argument using verse 2:30 is not valid in this matter.

Since you believe that Adam (as) was the first man created this is a problem you have to deal with. Your question shows that you are trying to refuting that which you don't understand. My view is that when a Prophet of God is sent he is rejected and after he is sent people are accountable for their actions after being warned, moreover blood is always shed when the disbelievers kill those who follow the Prophet of God and cause disorder in rejection of the Prophet of God.

So you tell me, what the verse is saying. As it appears your interpretation is falling apart.

 

[Rational_Mind]

If it is invalid, please try refuting it with evidences for everyone to see rather than pointing people to far off sites/resources without providing any argument - prove Jinns include Angels from the Qur'an, prove there could be multiple Adams from the Qur'an. I have already given proof from the Qur'an how Adam(pbuh) is the first born from the Qur'an and how Jinns and Angels are totally separate creations.

The word Jinn was used to say Rijal (men) from among Jinn in the Holy Quran . Which means man, as in the person belonging to mankind. I posted the verse. So until and unless you can prove my translation is wrong I do not see why I should accept your view which is in direct contradiction with the word. I also cited Hadith where the word Jinn was used.

Since you have not showed how your interpretation is valid when it comes to these verses and hadith, the way I see it is that you are refusing to accept anything but that which you already learned.

 

[loverOfTruth]

I completely disagree on this interpretation. As there is nothing in the verse to suggest "generations after generations". Moreover, the word "Khalifa" has never been used in that sense in regards to a Prophet of God.

Really ?
"[We said], "O David, indeed We have made you a successor upon the earth, so judge between the people in truth and do not follow [your own] desire, as it will lead you astray from the way of Allah ." Indeed, those who go astray from the way of Allah will have a severe punishment for having forgotten the Day of Account." (Al-Qur'an 38:26)

That completely invalidates your arguments above and below regarding Adam(pbuh) not being a Khalifa of God.

There is no comparison to be made between Khalifat-e-Rashida that followed the Holy Prophet (saw) and the Adam (as) being called a Khalifa. You are trying to avoid the obvious truth. Adam (as) is called a Khalifa and a Khalifa is not needed if there are no people. Your logic is flawed, please think this through, how can there be a Prophet (as) sent when there is no person to guide? The Quran has said multiple times why Prophets are sent. It is illogical for Allah (swt) to sent a person to guide mankind when mankind doesn't even exist yet.

You are confusing the issue of Adam(pbuh) being the first man and a representative of God on earth with him being a Prophet and he could still be a Prophet for people to come.

Since you believe that Adam (as) was the first man created this is a problem you have to deal with. Your question shows that you are trying to refuting that which you don't understand. My view is that when a Prophet of God is sent he is rejected and after he is sent people are accountable for their actions after being warned, moreover blood is always shed when the disbelievers kill those who follow the Prophet of God and cause disorder in rejection of the Prophet of God.

So you tell me, what the verse is saying. As it appears your interpretation is falling apart.

Nice try in evading the issue...but it is quite clear on what it is saying :
"And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." (Al-Qur'an 2:30)

Since Adam(pbuh) is the first man from mankind being put on earth, the angels ask, why would God put mankind on earth, given that mankind - believers/unbelievers alike will cause corruption and bloodshed on earth ? Now if mankind was already on earth, that question would either be meaningless or would mean the pre-Adam mankind was really peace loving and not corrupted mankind - and that assumption would open a can of worms for you to defend and not to mention makes no sense without any evidence to that effect whatsoever.

 

[loverOfTruth]

The word Jinn was used to say Rijal (men) from among Jinn in the Holy Quran . Which means man, as in the person belonging to mankind. I posted the verse. So until and unless you can prove my translation is wrong I do not see why I should accept your view which is in direct contradiction with the word. I also cited Hadith where the word Jinn was used.

Since you have not showed how your interpretation is valid when it comes to these verses and hadith, the way I see it is that you are refusing to accept anything but that which you already learned.

Once again you could not refute any of the quranic verses or the hadith that clearly proves that angels, jinn and mankind are three separate and distinct creations of God - rather kept repeating a vague interpretation of one verse where Jinn could mean men of Jinn to be men of mankind.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Once again you could not refute any of the quranic verses or the hadith that clearly proves that angels, jinn and mankind are three separate and distinct creations of God - rather kept repeating a vague interpretation of one verse where Jinn could mean men of Jinn to be men of mankind.

Until and unless you can show that my definition of the word Rijjal is wrong you understanding of the word Jinn is wrong. Please cite any reputable Arabic Lexicon that shows that the word Rijjal just means male and doesn't mean man. Until and unless you provide that, I don't need to prove anything else. This is sufficient to show Jinn can be from Mankind, hence your argument is invalid.

 

[Rational_Mind]

Really ?
"[We said], "O David, indeed We have made you a successor upon the earth, so judge between the people in truth and do not follow [your own] desire, as it will lead you astray from the way of Allah ." Indeed, those who go astray from the way of Allah will have a severe punishment for having forgotten the Day of Account." (Al-Qur'an 38:26)

That completely invalidates your arguments above and below regarding Adam(pbuh) not being a Khalifa of God.


You are confusing the issue of Adam(pbuh) being the first man and a representative of God on earth with him being a Prophet and he could still be a Prophet for people to come.



Nice try in evading the issue...but it is quite clear on what it is saying :
"And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know." (Al-Qur'an 2:30)

Since Adam(pbuh) is the first man from mankind being put on earth, the angels ask, why would God put mankind on earth, given that mankind - believers/unbelievers alike will cause corruption and bloodshed on earth ? Now if mankind was already on earth, that question would either be meaningless or would mean the pre-Adam mankind was really peace loving and not corrupted mankind - and that assumption would open a can of worms for you to defend and not to mention makes no sense without any evidence to that effect whatsoever.

Khalifa does not ever imply generations after generation. Adam (as) was sent to mankind, which means mankind existed. Since he was made a successor it requires there be something for him to succeed over. If you think Adam (as) succeeded God, then shame on you.

Until and unless you can provide an Arabic Lexicon that shows your definition of Khalifa, your argument is shameful.

 

[loverOfTruth]

Khalifa does not ever imply generations after generation. Adam (as) was sent to mankind, which means mankind existed. Since he was made a successor it requires there be something for him to succeed over. If you think Adam (as) succeeded God, then shame on you.

Until and unless you can provide an Arabic Lexicon that shows your definition of Khalifa, your argument is shameful.

I guess you have no more responses so you are just intentionally twisting the meaning of what I am saying even after I have clearly specified what it meant ... nice try.

 

[Rational_Mind]

I guess you have no more responses so you are just intentionally twisting the meaning of what I am saying even after I have clearly specified what it meant ... nice try.

[109:7] ‘For you your religion, and for me my religion.’

I will leave it at that. I felt I have sufficiently made my point on the basis of the words actually present in the Quran not interpretations. My discussion with you loverOfTruth is as far as it is going to get, you have won.

As for other people who come across this thread, let me make two things clear:

"Khalifa" is a successor, hence Adam (as) was a successor over other humans, which is why Iblees stated he will cause bloodshed, because there was blood existing that would be shed when there is a struggle between Good and Evil. The verse [2:31] is conclusive in meaning, it has first used the word "Khalifa": (1) one who comes after and stands in the place of some one, (2) an Imam or supreme religious head and (3) a sovereign or king or ruler. (Aqrab Lexicon) It is also used for one who precedes someone and is followed by him. (Qadir). This word means everything contrary to being the first human being. Moreover, the same verse below demonstrates that there is a possibility of disorder and bloodshed, hence it means there must have been others who would cause this on rejection of a Prophet, or else, it is meaning (God Forbid) that Adam (as) would harm his own children.

[2:31] And when thy Lord said to the angels: ‘I am about to place a vicegerent in the earth,’ they said: ‘Wilt Thou place therein such as will cause disorder in it, and shed blood? — and we glorify Thee with Thy praise and extol Thy holiness.’ He answered: ‘I know what you know not.’


Regards to the term "Jinn" used has meaning originating from its root which means something covered or concealed. So when used in about Humans it can mean the influential people that remain concealed from society, out of the public eye. The verse below has clearly used the word "Rijaal" which is only used for human being to refer to "men from among the Jinn". If one can provide the use of Rijaal anywhere in the Quran where it doesn't refer to human beings they have an argument. In reality they hold no ground.

[72:7] ‘And indeed some men from among the common folk used to seek the protection of some men from among the Jinn, and they thus increased the latter in their pride;

Yes my view contradicts mainstream, yes people will have many more questions as they feel other verses portray the contrary. In my opinion it is misinterpretations, these two verses just serve to prove they are completely wrong interpretations. That leaves one to put effort in and see if the Ahmadiyya View fixes this issue.