Islam - Woman is only worth 1/2 of a man?

[Snowbear]

A few other threads are discussing other aspects of the inequality of women in the Quran. This thread is about another aspect of this. Why is the witness of a woman considered only 1/2 as good as that of a man?

ى فَاكْتُبُوهُ وَلْيَكْتُب بَّيْنَكُمْ كَاتِبٌ بِالْعَدْلِ وَلاَ يَأْبَ كَاتِبٌ أَنْ يَكْتُبَ كَمَا عَلَّمَهُ اللّهُ فَلْيَكْتُبْ وَلْيُمْلِلِ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ وَلْيَتَّقِ اللّهَ رَبَّهُ وَلاَ يَبْخَسْ مِنْهُ شَيْئاً فَإن كَانَ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ سَفِيهاً أَوْ ضَعِيفاً أَوْ لاَ يَسْتَطِيعُ أَن يُمِلَّ هُوَ فَلْيُمْلِلْ وَلِيُّهُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ شَهِيدَيْنِ من رِّجَالِكُمْ فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُونَا رَجُلَيْنِ فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَأَتَانِ مِمَّن تَرْضَوْنَ مِنَ الشُّهَدَاء أَن تَضِلَّ إْحْدَاهُمَا فَتُذَكِّرَ إِحْدَاهُمَا الأُخْرَى وَلاَ يَأْبَ الشُّهَدَاء إِذَا مَا دُعُواْ وَلاَ تَسْأَمُوْاْ أَن تَكْتُبُوْهُ صَغِيراً أَو كَبِيراً إِلَى أَجَلِهِ ذَلِكُمْ أَقْسَطُ عِندَ اللّهِ وَأَقْومُ لِلشَّهَادَةِ وَأَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَرْتَابُواْ إِلاَّ أَن تَكُونَ تِجَارَةً حَاضِرَةً تُدِيرُونَهَا بَيْنَكُمْ فَلَيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ جُنَاحٌ أَلاَّ تَكْتُبُوهَا وَأَشْهِدُوْاْ إِذَا تَبَايَعْتُمْ وَلاَ يُضَآرَّ كَاتِبٌ وَلاَ شَهِيدٌ وَإِن تَفْعَلُواْ فَإِنَّهُ فُسُوقٌ بِكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ

2.282. O ye who believe! When ye contract a debt for a fixed term , record it in writing. Let a scribe record it in writing between you in ( terms of ) equity. No scribe should refuse to write as Allah hath taught him, so let him write, and let him who incurreth the debt dictate, and let him observe his duty to Allah his Lord, and diminish naught thereof. But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in ( terms of ) equity. And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not ( at hand ) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth ( through forgetfulness ) the other will remember. And the witnesses must not refuse when they are summoned. Be not averse to writing down ( the contract ) whether it be small or great, with ( record of ) the term thereof. That is more equitable in the sight of Allah and more sure for testimony, and the best way of avoiding doubt between you; save only in the case when it is actual merchandise which ye transfer among yourselves from hand to hand. In that case it is no sin for you if ye write it not. And have witnesses when ye sell one to another, and let no harm be done to scribe or witness. If ye do ( harm to them ) lo! it is a sin in you. Observe your duty to Allah. Allah is teaching you. And Allah is Knower of all things.​

 

[Snowbear]

Why is the inheritance of a woman only 1/2 that of a man?

يُوصِيكُمُ اللّهُ فِي أَوْلاَدِكُمْ لِلذَّكَرِ مِثْلُ حَظِّ الأُنثَيَيْنِ فَإِن كُنَّ نِسَاء فَوْقَ اثْنَتَيْنِ فَلَهُنَّ ثُلُثَا مَا تَرَكَ وَإِن كَانَتْ وَاحِدَةً فَلَهَا النِّصْفُ وَلأَبَوَيْهِ لِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ مِمَّا تَرَكَ إِن كَانَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُ وَلَدٌ وَوَرِثَهُ أَبَوَاهُ فَلأُمِّهِ الثُّلُثُ فَإِن كَانَ لَهُ إِخْوَةٌ فَلأُمِّهِ السُّدُسُ مِن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ يُوصِي بِهَا أَوْ دَيْنٍ آبَآؤُكُمْ وَأَبناؤُكُمْ لاَ تَدْرُونَ أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ لَكُمْ نَفْعاً فَرِيضَةً مِّنَ اللّهِ إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيما حَكِيماً ​

4.1. Allah chargeth you concerning ( the provision for ) your children: to the male the equivalent of the portion of two females, and if there be women more than two, then theirs is two-thirds of the inheritance , and if there be one ( only ) then the half. And to his parents a sixth of the inheritance, if he have a son; and if he have no son and his parents are his heirs, then to his mother appertaineth the third; and if he have brethren, then to his mother appertaineth the sixth, after any legacy he may have bequeathed, or debt ( hath been paid ). Your parents or your children: Ye know not which of them is nearer unto you in usefulness. It is an injunction from Allah. Lo! Allah is Knower, rise.

​

وَلَكُمْ نِصْفُ مَا تَرَكَ أَزْوَاجُكُمْ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّهُنَّ وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَ لَهُنَّ وَلَدٌ فَلَكُمُ الرُّبُعُ مِمَّا تَرَكْنَ مِن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ يُوصِينَ بِهَا أَوْ دَيْنٍ وَلَهُنَّ الرُّبُعُ مِمَّا تَرَكْتُمْ إِن لَّمْ يَكُن لَّكُمْ وَلَدٌ فَإِن كَانَ لَكُمْ وَلَدٌ فَلَهُنَّ الثُّمُنُ مِمَّا تَرَكْتُم مِّن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ تُوصُونَ بِهَا أَوْ دَيْنٍ وَإِن كَانَ رَجُلٌ يُورَثُ كَلاَلَةً أَو امْرَأَةٌ وَلَهُ أَخٌ أَوْ أُخْتٌ فَلِكُلِّ وَاحِدٍ مِّنْهُمَا السُّدُسُ فَإِن كَانُوَاْ أَكْثَرَ مِن ذَلِكَ فَهُمْ شُرَكَاء فِي الثُّلُثِ مِن بَعْدِ وَصِيَّةٍ يُوصَى بِهَا أَوْ دَيْنٍ غَيْرَ مُضَآرٍّ وَصِيَّةً مِّنَ اللّهِ وَاللّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَلِيمٌ ​

4.12. And unto you belongeth a half of that which your wives leave, if they have no child; but if they have a child then unto you the fourth of that which they leave, after any legacy they may have bequeathed, or debt ( they may have contracted, hath been paid ). And unto them belongeth the fourth of that which ye leave if ye have no child, but if ye have a child then the eighth of that which ye leave, after any legacy ye may have bequeathed , or debt ( ye may have contracted, hath been paid ). And if a man or a woman have a distant heir ( having left neither parent nor child ), and he ( or she ) have a brother or a sister ( only on the mother's side ) then to each of them twain ( the brother and the sister ) the sixth, and if they be more than two, then they shall be sharers in the third, after any legacy that may have been bequeathed or debt ( contracted ) not injuring ( the heirs by willing away more than a third of the heritage ) hath been paid. A commandment from Allah. Allah is knower, Indulgent .​

 

[Jerrell]

In the Begining Woman was made from a man. Some Moslems think of women as less than a man, this is true though, but they take it further, and think of them as less than human, as though men are the only humans.

This kind of belief causes discrimination amongst many societies, and a problem which I, as a Christian do not like.

 

[Djamila]

Women in Islam are not less than human, quite the opposite actually. At the time Islam was revealed, the rights it provided for women were unique in the world. It is only in the last 200 years that Christian women have achieved what Muslim women were given more than a millenium ago; and it is only in the last 100 years that secular states in the West have surpassed what Islam brought for women.

It's still common in Bosnia and Herzegovina for religious mixed couples to raise their daughters as Muslims and their sons in the other faith, because it is culturally and historically understood that Islam empowers women. That may be less true today, but it at the very lease reflects the history of Islam and women's rights.

 

[darkpenguin]

why are women seen as less than men? in reality men couldnt be here without women, both in my eyes are equal and any religion that says otherwise is wrong, flat out wrong!

 

[kai]

Volume 1, Book 6, Number 301:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
Once Allah's Apostle went out to the Musalla (to offer the prayer) o 'Id-al-Adha or Al-Fitr prayer. Then he passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-fire were you (women)." They asked, "Why is it so, O Allah's Apostle ?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is deficient in our intelligence and religion?" He said, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Isn't it true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?" The women replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in her religion.

 

[Snowbear]

Women in Islam are not less than human, quite the opposite actually.

I'm not saying that women are less than human. What I'm asking about is why their 'worth' (I can't think of a better word ?? ... their status maybe ??) is only half of that accorded to a man. In the examples I gave from the Quran (I have no doubt I could find more), in commerce, it takes 2 men to secure witness of a transaction. If 2 men can't be found, one can be replaced with 2 women. In matters of inheritence, female heirs are accorded 1/2 the inheritance of male heirs. Wives are accorded 1/2 the inheritence accorded husbands.

 

[ayani]

kai- is the verse you quoted a part of the Hadith?

 

[kai]

kai- is the verse you quoted a part of the Hadith?

here is my source gracie, forgive me i should have put it in the post
http://www.truthnet.org/Islam/Hadith/Bukhari/6/

 

[CAPPA]

I'm not saying that women are less than human. What I'm asking about is why their 'worth' (I can't think of a better word ?? ... their status maybe ??) is only half of that accorded to a man. In the examples I gave from the Quran (I have no doubt I could find more), in commerce, it takes 2 men to secure witness of a transaction. If 2 men can't be found, one can be replaced with 2 women. In matters of inheritence, female heirs are accorded 1/2 the inheritance of male heirs. Wives are accorded 1/2 the inheritence accorded husbands.

If you look a bit past the religion to even the first days of man, women were not a major part of history in terms of events, I believe that at the time in which the Quran was written, this mindset was still true. As in the bible, slavery was accepted, these are just aspects of the religion as taught form those days. It is only of late that women have reached the levels of men form a society's standpoint. You bring up a good point to examine, I wish that people would spend time questioning rather then believing so blindly.

-CappA

 

[Djamila]

jmoum, I had your post written myself but decided not to get involved in such a debate. But I agree. Also, men had to be more independent with their lives, through their inheritance. In those days, women had only to find a nice husband.

Though it was common for women to work. Khadija, for example, Mohammed's wife, was much older than him, a successful businesswoman, widowed, and she proposed marriage to him - not the other way around.

And as for the hadiths... *patooie*... and people then ask why some of us don't believe in them? lol

 

[Snowbear]

If you look a bit past the religion to even the first days of man, women were not a major part of history in terms of events, I believe that at the time in which the Quran was written, this mindset was still true. As in the bible, slavery was accepted, these are just aspects of the religion as taught form those days. It is only of late that women have reached the levels of men form a society's standpoint. You bring up a good point to examine, I wish that people would spend time questioning rather then believing so blindly.

-CappA

Christianity is older than Islam. Even in a culture that looked down on women, the Apostle Paul considered some women his equal (not 1/2 his equal) in the ministry. Many men have taken a single passage out of context in the Bible to devalue the worth of women and yes, it is only recently that *some* women have regain equality.

The muslims believe the Quran to be the word of God. While I believe that God made men and women with different features and capabilities, I don't at all believe He made them with different worth, as the Quran seems to imply in the passages I quoted. I read the translations of those passages in context and found that they did not read differently, so rather than quote the whole Surah, I just quoted the Ayat... hope that's OK? I also quoted the Arabic in case a muslim who can read it will correct the translation for us.

Anyhow, it seems that in many regions where Islam is the dominant religion, oppression of women continues.... and it's done in the name of Allah and by authority of the Quran. If the Quran gave women rights, why doesn't it give them equal rights to men?

 

[Snowbear]

I'm sorry, I'm having a brain fart it seems. The word "Hadiths" sound very familiar but I can't remember what they are. So uh, could someone enlighten me? Please? Anyone?

Hadith (plural Ahadith) are 'The sayings of the prophet' Muhammed. Some muslims believe the 'authenticated' ahadith clarify and instruct one in how to apply the Quran to one's life.

 

[ayani]

Another thing you might want to consider was that back then in that region and culture, the idea that a woman could be considered a witness at all, let alone inheret things, was a very radical idea.

true.

pity though that the Sharia is a part of the unchangable and pre-existant word of God applicable to all of humanity forever, and not anything like a man-made blueprint for social reform in mediavel arabia.

 

[Snowbear]

Well, just like Muslims believe the Quran is the word of God, so do Christians believe the Bible is as well. But aren't Christians just as selective (if not more so) about which parts of the Bible they do and do not listen to?

Some are. But not all of us are (which was part of the point of my earlier post ).
If a person believes their Holy Book is the Word of God, shouldn't it be an all or nothing thing? After all, if some of it isn't His Word, how can you know ANY of it is?
For me, I believe the Bible is the Word of God. I understand and respect that muslims believe the Quran is the Word of God.

As for your final paragraph, just because something is done in the name of God, it doesn't mean that God Himself condones such behavior (look at the Nazi's, the KKK, Religious Extremists, etc).

Exactly! Just like most Christians don't condone the actions of the KKK, I would hope most mulims don't condone suicide bombings.
The point of this thread is that the Quran pretty clearly states the worth of women. Is that REALLY what God intended?

More so, God wants people to not only accept His word, but to embrace it whole heartedly.

Exactly

As a result, do you really think that He would make demands and put forth ideas and concepts before the world is ready for them? I think He's much smarter than that. As a result, He does things bit by bit.

So in the context of the OP, are you implying that God told men that women are only to be considered worth 1/2 of men as a stepping stone? I think God is a lot smarter than that and will either tell it like it is, or not tell it at all.

 

[kai]

on this rare accasion i find myself agreeing with Djamilla, it seems alot of problems stem from the hadith, trying to emulate how a seventh century man lived his life will bring conflict in 21st century life

 

[CAPPA]

Christianity is older than Islam. Even in a culture that looked down on women, the Apostle Paul considered some women his equal (not 1/2 his equal) in the ministry. Many men have taken a single passage out of context in the Bible to devalue the worth of women and yes, it is only recently that *some* women have regain equality.

The muslims believe the Quran to be the word of God. While I believe that God made men and women with different features and capabilities, I don't at all believe He made them with different worth, as the Quran seems to imply in the passages I quoted. I read the translations of those passages in context and found that they did not read differently, so rather than quote the whole Surah, I just quoted the Ayat... hope that's OK? I also quoted the Arabic in case a muslim who can read it will correct the translation for us.

Anyhow, it seems that in many regions where Islam is the dominant religion, oppression of women continues.... and it's done in the name of Allah and by authority of the Quran. If the Quran gave women rights, why doesn't it give them equal rights to men?

Well said Snowbear, as for you question, I wish I was able to answer it.

:clap

 

[Peace4all]

Women in Islam are not less than human, quite the opposite actually. At the time Islam was revealed, the rights it provided for women were unique in the world. It is only in the last 200 years that Christian women have achieved what Muslim women were given more than a millenium ago; and it is only in the last 100 years that secular states in the West have surpassed what Islam brought for women.

It's still common in Bosnia and Herzegovina for religious mixed couples to raise their daughters as Muslims and their sons in the other faith, because it is culturally and historically understood that Islam empowers women. That may be less true today, but it at the very lease reflects the history of Islam and women's rights.

Well Said!:clap

I have a theory that when Muslim countries are modernizing more women will start to adopt work , making them more independant from man.
​

 

[Ryan2065]

Saying a woman is "worth" half that of a man is a bold statement to make with only they inherit half that of a man and two women will replace one man as far as witnesses go... Seeing as there are MANY MANY things in Islam that women get that are equal to men... To say they are "worth" half that of a man is misleading.

 

[Ezzedean]

In the Begining Woman was made from a man. Some Moslems think of women as less than a man, this is true though, but they take it further, and think of them as less than human, as though men are the only humans.

LOL!!! :biglaugh:....That's too much... I cant even get offended at this, I mostly just feel sorry for your ignorance. Man... that was the first time I've heard that one. Women not being fully human LOL... ahh thanxs for the laugh Jerell.

Peace and Blessings