Liar! I'm 38 and I've witnessed it!It's gone completely and has been for years. I know exactly what you're referring to and it no longer exists. It's now only in the minds of the very old (70+) and only when something reminds them.
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Islamaphobia, bigotry, hate, and cruelty!
- Thread starter Spiderman
- Start date
Ratlover47
New Member
I've read the Qur'an from front to back twice, with two different translations. Most of it is not calls to hatred, bigotry, and violence. I have also read Mussolini's "Doctrine of Fascism". Most of it is not hateful or calls to violence either.
The fact of the matter is, I have found far more vicious, cruel, hatred, calls to violence, and bigoted verses in the Qur'an, than in Mussolini's "Doctrine of Fascism". Yet, if someone came to RF and started speaking of Mussolini's "Doctrine of Fascism", like it was inspired by God, I think everyone would despise him/her, and no one would come to the defense of such a Fascist, and rightfully so.
However, I have seen liberal atheists even come to the defense of Muhammad and the Qur'an, which is a book that contains anti-Semitism, hatred, bigotry, calls to violence, and much of what we dislike about Fascism. Muhammad personally decapitated many Jews, Polytheists, Christians, and unbelievers who opposed him.
All references to the Qur'an that I quote on this post have been cross-checked on Islamic websites:
"The recompense of those who fight Allah and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is their disgrace in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great torment." (Qur'an 5:33)
I will cut off your hands and feet from alternate sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and you will come to know which of us is greater in retribution and more lasting!' " (Qur'an 20:71)
If such vicious, cruel, hateful, brutal, psychopathic talk came from a cult leader like Charles Manson, we would call a spade a spade. Muhammad (like Charles Manson), was a religious leader whose teachings lead his followers to kill...(only the first Muslims killed FAR more people than the Manson family.)
Now, some Muslims say, the chopping off of hands and feet and crucifixion of non-muslims is a punishment in the next life. Great, so Allah is more cruel, barbaric, and extreme than ISIS? If Allah treats infidels in such a manner, what's wrong with ISIS doing it?
Other Muslims have stated that Muhammad had the hands and feet of prisoners chopped off, because there were no facilities to detain them, and it prevented them from escaping.
Either way, it is the epitome of vicious cruelty towards non-Muslims. What if those prisoners convert to Islam? How can they be a productive member of society without hands and feet? And I have even heard "peaceful, humble Muslims" defend the practice of chopping off hands and heads in the 21st century. Is this what we've become?
So, don't you think there were people who were falsely accused who got their hands cut off? Of course! Innocent people are convicted and proven innocent a lot. How do you restore the hand to them after cutting it off?
If it weren't for Islam, do you think Saudi-Arabia would have waited till the 21st century to let women drive? Saudi-Arabia is the Islamic Capitol and "Holy Land" in many ways. How would we feel about a Nation that didn't let ethnic minorities drive until the 21st century? Yet, an Islamic Theocracy, and the most holiest of pilgrimage sights in Islam (and our Alli), gets to do this to an entire gender? How is that any less outrageous or bigoted?
I've prayed at a Muslim Mosque in New York, before women could drive in Saudi-Arabia, and these "peaceful, humble, law-abiding" Muslims defended such policies, as well as cutting off heads and hands.
Not to mention, in Saudi-Arabia, you can spend a good chunk of your life in prison for starting a blog online that criticizes the government even in minor ways.
Bottom line is, many of these "peaceful Muslims" sympathize with and defend such dark-aged, intolerant, vicious, bigoted policies and forms of Government that resemble Fascism.
What would we think if there were a billion people who adhered to Fascism? Even if most of these Fascists were "peaceful people", would we refuse to condemn the ideology they adhere to based on the premise that most of them are "peaceful"?
Truth is, we don't know what percentage of Muslims hate Jews, atheists, Idolaters, and non-muslims. There is no way to get an accurate statistic about what the average Muslim thinks. Most of the Muslims I have talked to and asked questions, say very negative things about Jews, Israel, people who join associates with God, and Idolaters.
Bottom line is, the Qur'an promotes bigotry, violence, anti-Semitism, and hatred.
5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends: They are but friends to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,” – Quran 9:5
But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. [Quran Verses 22:19-22]
There are plenty more calls to hate, bigotry, and glorification of torture and mass-killings of non-muslims. I just haven't double-checked all the verses on Islamic websites for accuracy.
There are words of peace and charity in the Qur'an, but most of those words of kindness and peace are for those who "repent" or convert to Islam.
Bottom line is, repeatedly the Qur'an speaks of one acceptable Religion, and that is for those who accept "The messenger of Allah', and his message.
Repeatedly the Qur'an speaks of brutal torture in store for Non-Muslims in this life and the next. Repeatedly the Qur'an speaks of Allah's anger and hatred for non-Muslims and unbelievers. If Allah hates us so much, can't it be easily argued (among adherents to Islam), that groups like ISIS are doing Allah's will by killing us??
Mussolini's "Doctrine of Fascism" is quite mild in comparison. Thing is, there are many Muslim majority countries where torture, death, imprisonment, and atrocities are the lot of people who speak the truth that I am speaking.
In my lifetime I have seen riots and bloodshed throughout the Islamic world over a cartoon of Muhammad, resulting in deaths. In my lifetime, people that make the cartoons are sometimes put to death, even in the free-world.
A cartoon causes riots throughout the Islamic world, while dark-aged atrocities are tolerated and defended by "peaceful Muslims"!
In my lifetime, there have been entire countries where women had to wear a full burka by law (Sometimes even covering their face) and couldn't get an education or drive. I would rather die than live like that!!! That is an entire gender punished worse than death imo! Millions and millions of lives ruined.
In my lifetime, homosexuals, blasphemers, Christians, Jews, Shiites, heretics, and Polytheists have legally been publicly tortured or executed in multiple countries, and women stoned to death for adultery. If this behavior was just as prevalent among Christians, you would hear me speak with the same degree of disgust for Christianity (and I often do).
Thing is, I have known many Christians like myself, who look at the atrocities in Scripture and say "That's messed up and wrong"! I have never met a Muslim online or in real life who condemned the injustices promoted in the Koran, or said "imho the Prophet made mistakes when he committed those acts". Instead, Muslims, (and non-Muslims, including some liberal atheists), come to his defense. Why??
Should that not disturb me thoroughly?
I'm the first one at RF to admit when I have errors, and have apologized multiple times. I have nothing to apologize for here. I am condemning hatred, bigotry, homophobia, anti-Semitism, calls to violence, dark-aged tyranny, and policies that resemble Fascist Dictatorships, that are decreasing the quality of lives, of hundreds of millions of people!
I have many problems. But one thing I am is compassionate!
Another thing I hate to see is people suffering cruel abuse for Religious reasons, and that is precisely how Muhammad and the early Muslims treated Polytheists, Jews, Christians, and unbelievers. Muhammad destroyed shrines and statues that were considered sacred and cherished by Polytheists.
In my lifetime, Muslims destroyed ancient Buddhist Temples (and who knows what else.) The Muslims who did those deeds were following the example of "The messenger of Allah"! Muhammad was an extremist! That is NOT an opinion, but is a verifiable fact!
Speaking the truth about Muhammad should be just as acceptable as speaking the truth about far-right Fascist Dictators.
We should love Muslims! Sometimes the loving thing to do is point out what is unhealthy! I'm not in any way saying we should not love Muslims. But we have to recognize where the threat is coming from at the same time! I'm only speaking against tyranny, hate, bigotry, anti-Semitism, and calls to violence! Should we defend such hate under any circumstances?
Thoughts?
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Sounds like it could possibly be a rhetorical question.
It also depends on how you are using the word "Objective".
It helped me see the objective reality in a way that the lights hadn't illuminated till a belligerent atheist gave me a wiff of the stench, the ugliness of the sight, and the degree of stupidity within the text I cherished.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
@Ratlover47
your post is very incomprehensible.
Can I help you sir?
I love rats too. They are very intelligent. I used to raise them to feed to my Burmese python.
your post is very incomprehensible.
Can I help you sir?
I love rats too. They are very intelligent. I used to raise them to feed to my Burmese python.
Forgive me, but doesn't the OT (and even a few translations of the NT) contain prescriptions to stone adulterers, how to properly discipline slaves and to stone disobedient children? I can understand viewing certain passages as outdated therefore openly criticising them. But you seriously needed outsiders to point out that they were cruel?
I don't understand people of the book at all. I was always critical of the various folklore and scriptural stories I heard growing up.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Well, i was quite young and stupid.
I thought the content was quite stupid, while at the same time buying into the idea on some level that uncircumcised non-Jews weren't human as the Bible was portraying, because I believed it to be the inerrant word of God, therefore they must not have had feelings or they were intentionally enemies of God.
I figured that killing all those people must have been the merciful treatment of them, and gave God the benefit of the doubt, thinking perhaps they had some reward in Heaven afterwards.
It's interesting the ways a mind can overlook such things when you believe a text is without error and inspired by God.
I'd be so scared if I masturbated that I was spiritually a damnable rotting leper until being washed clean and restored to health in the confession booth.
Now, of course, I realize that I'm quite the same after yanking one out as I was before.
But still go to the confession booth on occasion, but not with the same medieval superstition.
Atheist intervention made all the difference in the world, when they compare God to a narcissist and Fascist Dictator.
However, Fascist Dictators actually make more sense than God sometimes does imo in the Bible or Qur'an.
Ahh good old Catholic Guilt as my uncle would say.
Spiderman
Veteran Member
I really don't appreciate being compared to someone like Adolf Hitler for posting about brotherly love, compassion, gay rights, women's equality, human decency, non-violence, freedom of speech, the golden rule, and social justice!
I have more in common with Gandhi, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, @SomeRandom, or Jesus Christ!
Not that I have much in common with any of them, but compared to Hitler we are almost identical in the virtues we extol!
I have more in common with Gandhi, Mother Teresa of Calcutta, @SomeRandom, or Jesus Christ!
Not that I have much in common with any of them, but compared to Hitler we are almost identical in the virtues we extol!
Spiderman
Veteran Member
@Ratlover47
Your post made no sense to me.
Could you please try posting again so that I know you are a human being and not a robot?
Your post made no sense to me.
Could you please try posting again so that I know you are a human being and not a robot?
Spiderman
Veteran Member
Neither,
I'm trying to get you to love Fascists and love Muslims, while at the same time recognizing and renouncing obvious tyranny in it's ugliest forms!
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I hope you're being flippant in calling me a liar; that really wasn't very nice of you. The change was made in 1990. If you are 38 and have witnessed it, you must have been 10 years old at the time.
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I'm sorry if I lost my temper. When I went to the Temple in 1998 they had hand motions that I thought signaled violent things they would do if you revealed the accompanying signs and tokens. I don't understand how we can disagree since this is something I clearly remember.
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Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I don't understand how we can either, since I don't believe any of the information online (either pro- or anti-Mormon or completely neutral) disputes the 1990 date I gave. I went through the temple for the first time in 1970, a week before I got married. I remember the "violent gestures" you are referring to. My husband and I attended endowment sessions sporadically for the next couple of years. I really wasn't enjoying going to the temple at all, though, and I told my husband he could go without me if he chose to, but that I was done. He chose not to. We didn't go again for another roughly 22 years, when a man I worked with and admired a great deal, encouraged us to go with him and his wife. I can't remember the exact year we started attending again, but it was either in 1990 or within a few months of 1990. If it was 1989, it's possible that the change had not taken place, but according to everything I can find online, the change took place in 1990, and I honestly can't remember the gestures from any time after I started attending again. I do remember them from back in the early 1970s. If you can find anything to back up your claim that the change had not been made by 1998, please show me where it is, because I want to know if I'm wrong.
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I think I know what's wrong here:
They used to depict violent acts whereas now they just have symbols that they don't tell the meaning of.
Thank you for wanting to get to the truth; this was never about attacking Mormonism but just discussing it's progress with violence honestly like it's progress with black people (and Joseph Smith ordained free black men).
If those post goes terribly wrong then I do apologize in advance.
They used to depict violent acts whereas now they just have symbols that they don't tell the meaning of.
Thank you for wanting to get to the truth; this was never about attacking Mormonism but just discussing it's progress with violence honestly like it's progress with black people (and Joseph Smith ordained free black men).
If those post goes terribly wrong then I do apologize in advance.
Jumi
Well-Known Member
Yes. I think @PopeADope should watch a few of Adnan Ibrahim's videos. It would do him good to get over this anti-islam phase.
I remember this wonderful video texted in English:
Frater Sisyphus
Contradiction, irrationality and disorder
^^ I hope that he get's through his anti-Islam phase too
lukethethird
unknown member
Aren't most Muslims, (as well as Xians, and all the rest) ordinary people that don't take their texts too seriously?
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paarsurrey
Veteran Member
"I've read the Qur'an from front to back twice, with two different translations."I've read the Qur'an from front to back twice, with two different translations. Most of it is not calls to hatred, bigotry, and violence. I have also read Mussolini's "Doctrine of Fascism". Most of it is not hateful or calls to violence either.
The fact of the matter is, I have found far more vicious, cruel, hatred, calls to violence, and bigoted verses in the Qur'an, than in Mussolini's "Doctrine of Fascism". Yet, if someone came to RF and started speaking of Mussolini's "Doctrine of Fascism", like it was inspired by God, I think everyone would despise him/her, and no one would come to the defense of such a Fascist, and rightfully so.
However, I have seen liberal atheists even come to the defense of Muhammad and the Qur'an, which is a book that contains anti-Semitism, hatred, bigotry, calls to violence, and much of what we dislike about Fascism. Muhammad personally decapitated many Jews, Polytheists, Christians, and unbelievers who opposed him.
All references to the Qur'an that I quote on this post have been cross-checked on Islamic websites:
"The recompense of those who fight Allah and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is their disgrace in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great torment." (Qur'an 5:33)
I will cut off your hands and feet from alternate sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of the palm trees, and you will come to know which of us is greater in retribution and more lasting!' " (Qur'an 20:71)
If such vicious, cruel, hateful, brutal, psychopathic talk came from a cult leader like Charles Manson, we would call a spade a spade. Muhammad (like Charles Manson), was a religious leader whose teachings lead his followers to kill...(only the first Muslims killed FAR more people than the Manson family.)
Now, some Muslims say, the chopping off of hands and feet and crucifixion of non-muslims is a punishment in the next life. Great, so Allah is more cruel, barbaric, and extreme than ISIS? If Allah treats infidels in such a manner, what's wrong with ISIS doing it?
Other Muslims have stated that Muhammad had the hands and feet of prisoners chopped off, because there were no facilities to detain them, and it prevented them from escaping.
Either way, it is the epitome of vicious cruelty towards non-Muslims. What if those prisoners convert to Islam? How can they be a productive member of society without hands and feet? And I have even heard "peaceful, humble Muslims" defend the practice of chopping off hands and heads in the 21st century. Is this what we've become?
So, don't you think there were people who were falsely accused who got their hands cut off? Of course! Innocent people are convicted and proven innocent a lot. How do you restore the hand to them after cutting it off?
If it weren't for Islam, do you think Saudi-Arabia would have waited till the 21st century to let women drive? Saudi-Arabia is the Islamic Capitol and "Holy Land" in many ways. How would we feel about a Nation that didn't let ethnic minorities drive until the 21st century? Yet, an Islamic Theocracy, and the most holiest of pilgrimage sights in Islam (and our Alli), gets to do this to an entire gender? How is that any less outrageous or bigoted?
I've prayed at a Muslim Mosque in New York, before women could drive in Saudi-Arabia, and these "peaceful, humble, law-abiding" Muslims defended such policies, as well as cutting off heads and hands.
Not to mention, in Saudi-Arabia, you can spend a good chunk of your life in prison for starting a blog online that criticizes the government even in minor ways.
Bottom line is, many of these "peaceful Muslims" sympathize with and defend such dark-aged, intolerant, vicious, bigoted policies and forms of Government that resemble Fascism.
What would we think if there were a billion people who adhered to Fascism? Even if most of these Fascists were "peaceful people", would we refuse to condemn the ideology they adhere to based on the premise that most of them are "peaceful"?
Truth is, we don't know what percentage of Muslims hate Jews, atheists, Idolaters, and non-muslims. There is no way to get an accurate statistic about what the average Muslim thinks. Most of the Muslims I have talked to and asked questions, say very negative things about Jews, Israel, people who join associates with God, and Idolaters.
Bottom line is, the Qur'an promotes bigotry, violence, anti-Semitism, and hatred.
5:51 O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends: They are but friends to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captive and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush,” – Quran 9:5
But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them, boiling fluid will be poured down their heads. Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron. [Quran Verses 22:19-22]
There are plenty more calls to hate, bigotry, and glorification of torture and mass-killings of non-muslims. I just haven't double-checked all the verses on Islamic websites for accuracy.
There are words of peace and charity in the Qur'an, but most of those words of kindness and peace are for those who "repent" or convert to Islam.
Bottom line is, repeatedly the Qur'an speaks of one acceptable Religion, and that is for those who accept "The messenger of Allah', and his message.
Repeatedly the Qur'an speaks of brutal torture in store for Non-Muslims in this life and the next. Repeatedly the Qur'an speaks of Allah's anger and hatred for non-Muslims and unbelievers. If Allah hates us so much, can't it be easily argued (among adherents to Islam), that groups like ISIS are doing Allah's will by killing us??
Mussolini's "Doctrine of Fascism" is quite mild in comparison. Thing is, there are many Muslim majority countries where torture, death, imprisonment, and atrocities are the lot of people who speak the truth that I am speaking.
In my lifetime I have seen riots and bloodshed throughout the Islamic world over a cartoon of Muhammad, resulting in deaths. In my lifetime, people that make the cartoons are sometimes put to death, even in the free-world.
A cartoon causes riots throughout the Islamic world, while dark-aged atrocities are tolerated and defended by "peaceful Muslims"!
In my lifetime, there have been entire countries where women had to wear a full burka by law (Sometimes even covering their face) and couldn't get an education or drive. I would rather die than live like that!!! That is an entire gender punished worse than death imo! Millions and millions of lives ruined.
In my lifetime, homosexuals, blasphemers, Christians, Jews, Shiites, heretics, and Polytheists have legally been publicly tortured or executed in multiple countries, and women stoned to death for adultery. If this behavior was just as prevalent among Christians, you would hear me speak with the same degree of disgust for Christianity (and I often do).
Thing is, I have known many Christians like myself, who look at the atrocities in Scripture and say "That's messed up and wrong"! I have never met a Muslim online or in real life who condemned the injustices promoted in the Koran, or said "imho the Prophet made mistakes when he committed those acts". Instead, Muslims, (and non-Muslims, including some liberal atheists), come to his defense. Why??
Should that not disturb me thoroughly?
I'm the first one at RF to admit when I have errors, and have apologized multiple times. I have nothing to apologize for here. I am condemning hatred, bigotry, homophobia, anti-Semitism, calls to violence, dark-aged tyranny, and policies that resemble Fascist Dictatorships, that are decreasing the quality of lives, of hundreds of millions of people!
I have many problems. But one thing I am is compassionate!
Another thing I hate to see is people suffering cruel abuse for Religious reasons, and that is precisely how Muhammad and the early Muslims treated Polytheists, Jews, Christians, and unbelievers. Muhammad destroyed shrines and statues that were considered sacred and cherished by Polytheists.
In my lifetime, Muslims destroyed ancient Buddhist Temples (and who knows what else.) The Muslims who did those deeds were following the example of "The messenger of Allah"! Muhammad was an extremist! That is NOT an opinion, but is a verifiable fact!
Speaking the truth about Muhammad should be just as acceptable as speaking the truth about far-right Fascist Dictators.
We should love Muslims! Sometimes the loving thing to do is point out what is unhealthy! I'm not in any way saying we should not love Muslims. But we have to recognize where the threat is coming from at the same time! I'm only speaking against tyranny, hate, bigotry, anti-Semitism, and calls to violence! Should we defend such hate under any circumstances?
Thoughts?
One has simply not understood the Quran correctly.
Please try to reas the verses seem to be hateful etc from their context verses and one would see that Quran is most peaceful and practical.
Regards