Islamic Justice: girl lashed for being raped; rapist pardoned

[Riverwolf]

Look, Hadith are supposed to be the words and deeds of Muhammad -it's not unlike the Bible, the two main branches of Islam have their own collection of these "words of wisdom" that they follow. It doesn't matter in what format they are and who the author is. Just like the Bible, just like Mein Kampf, just like Lord of the Rings, you cannot be said to follow the Hadith or follow the Bible just because there's always something in them you can find which you'll agree with. The collections represent something as a whole, they are not just the sum of their individual parts - just as the Bible represents something.

You cannot say I follow the Bible anymore than you can say that a Muslim follows the Bible, yet we both probably agree with parts of it. The Bible isn't a single piece of work either.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself. If you reduce the "follow the Hadith" statement to such a degree that even agreeing with a single idea makes you a follower - even though you strongly disagree with the rest, than it's a useless expression. It's useless for the Bible, it's useless for Mein Kampf, it's useless for the Communist Manifesto and it's useless for The Lord of the Rings.

You can't compare the Biblical canon with Mein Kamf or Lord of the Rings or any modern works like that. Those had ONE author, and are a single, completed whole. The Biblical canon is a small library of works, and is made of several parts of wholes. Think of the Bible as like a "best of" collection rather than a single whole.

I think of the Hadith (which are numerous in number and therefore not single works) as the Book of Proverbs. You can agree with some proverbs and not agree with others. You can read one which says something you hadn't thought of yet, but find very wise, and start following it.

 

[cottage]

Clearly, the words we're using for each other are causing both of us to erect solid walls between us, preventing any useful communication. (I don't know about you, but your word choices are causing all my defenses to go up, which severely inhibits my ability to rationalize. I still have to develop firm self-esteem, so I won't have any use for those defenses and can safely discard them.) Therefore, this part is the only part I'll respond to.

With respect, you weren’t being called upon to mount a soapbox and shout your disapproval to the world. What was noted was your reluctance to condemn what occurred while interpreting the wording to mean more than what was stated and defending your (supposed) offence.

Now, if you think I purposely, intentionally, misrepresented some words, please show me some evidence of that, because clearly, even though you don't know me or anything about me, really, you somehow know me better than I do. Are you a psychologist? (Only then would what you say about me have even a tiny bit of weight.)

We all stand to be judged by what we say on a public forum, and so I don’t presume to know you other than by what you write. What I do know is that you overreacted to a post, and inferred more from a statement than the words actually implied. You wanted to understand the statement as an argument from the particular to the general, which is false reasoning. In Britain during the seventies there were several notable miscarriages of justice, which were put right on appeal in latter years. The tabloids announced ‘British Justice: Guildford Four falsely imprisoned.’ The headlines were correct. It was justice dispensed (but miscarried) by the British, and the individuals were convicted wrongly. But it doesn’t follow from those regrettable cases that the British legal system is unjust or necessarily flawed.

Not to mention, take a look at the way the Western cultures view Islam right now: with hatred and fear.

You are on record as saying ‘to all intents and purposes we are at war with Islam.’ What an outrageously false statement! And elsewhere you said: ‘It basically paints Islam in the light of an evil force in the world that needs to be wiped out.’ You then said: ‘Even if that wasn’t the intention, it’s the effect. ‘It’s the problem with using over-generalized statements.’ ‘Over-generalized’ is exactly what you’ve been doing: falsely inferring meaning from a particular instance to a general proposition. Forgive me, but that is intentional misrepresentation.

 

[Riverwolf]

I'm done here. It's clear that I can't articulate what I'm trying to say very well.

Besides, Cottage, you're too difficult for me to debate with (at no fault of yours). I'll stick to "easy" mode for now. Later.

 

[Commoner]

Here we go...
​

 

[Commoner]

You can't compare the Biblical canon with Mein Kamf or Lord of the Rings or any modern works like that. Those had ONE author, and are a single, completed whole. The Biblical canon is a small library of works, and is made of several parts of wholes. Think of the Bible as like a "best of" collection rather than a single whole.

I think of the Hadith (which are numerous in number and therefore not single works) as the Book of Proverbs. You can agree with some proverbs and not agree with others. You can read one which says something you hadn't thought of yet, but find very wise, and start following it.

But you're not actually addressing the point. You can't call me a follower of the Book of Proverbs either. Why on Earth would you do that? It would be completely meaningless - not to mention it would be dishonest.

I'm no follower of the Book of Proverbs, even though I'm sure I agree with some of it.

 

[Riverwolf]

But you're not actually addressing the point. You can't call me a follower of the Book of Proverbs either. Why on Earth would you do that? It would be completely meaningless - not to mention it would be dishonest.

I'm no follower of the Book of Proverbs, even though I'm sure I agree with some of it.

Maybe "following THE Hadith" is a bad way to word my hypothetical. How about "following A Hadith?" (At least I can still debate with you without throwing up my defenses.)

 

[Commoner]

Maybe "following THE Hadith" is a bad way to word my hypothetical. How about "following A Hadith?" (At least I can still debate with you without throwing up my defenses.)

But, "it's in the way that you use it".

No, I don't follow a single one of them. I agree with some, but that doesn't make me a "follower". It's more than just my distaste for the rest of the "collection", it is the way in which they are presented - on the authority of a prophet. While I might agree with the conclusion one could draw from the contents of an individual hadith regarding a certain issue, I do not agree with the premise that is a common, undelying theme throughout the Hadith - that one should consider the words and deeds of a prophet as significant in some way.

 

[Riverwolf]

But, "it's in the way that you use it".

No, I don't follow a single one of them. I agree with some, but that doesn't make me a "follower". It's more than just my distaste for the rest of the "collection", it is the way in which they are presented - on the authority of a prophet. While I might agree with the conclusion one could draw from the contents of an individual hadith regarding a certain issue, I do not agree with the premise that is a common, undelying theme throughout the Hadith - that one should consider the words and deeds of a prophet as significant in some way.

I don't believe I ever argued that.

Like I said, I've never really read any of them, so I can't say for certain whether or not I agree with any of them.

 

[Commoner]

I don't believe I ever argued that.

Like I said, I've never really read any of them, so I can't say for certain whether or not I agree with any of them.

You argued that a non-Muslim (i.e., someone who does not believe in Allah, the prophet...) can follow the Hadith.

How about you do read just a bit?

 

[Riverwolf]

You argued that a non-Muslim (i.e., someone who does not believe in Allah, the prophet...) can follow the Hadith.

Right, and now, since clearly that was poor wording, I say follow A Hadith. And I was presenting a hypothetical, and did mention (if I remember correctly) that I wasn't absolutely sure if any Hadith actually were able to be followed without being a Muslim.

How about you do read just a bit?

I do read quite a bit... about Hinduism, and some Judaism (and novels go read on a pale horse it's awesome!!). My studies have not brought me to Islam yet, and the Comparative Religion class I took last semester didn't reach Islam in time sad4:). I'm also a slow reader, and I'd like to study the three main Abrahamic Religions in order. I'm having a tough time getting myself started studying Judaism; it will be some time before I can really start studying Islam. Not to mention I'm trying to learn how to improve my reading comprehension, which isn't, admittedly, very good. (I tried reading Paradise Lost, but couldn't follow it.)

 

[kai]

You argued that a non-Muslim (i.e., someone who does not believe in Allah, the prophet...) can follow the Hadith.

How about you do read just a bit?

why cant a non muslim read a Hadith and say to himself "i like that i intend to use that in my life" and follow that Hadith? Whats stopping him?

 

[Commoner]

why cant a non muslim read a Hadith and say to himself "i like that i intend to use that in my life" and follow that Hadith? Whats stopping him?

Nothing. What's the first thing you'll have to do (according to the Hadith)? - believe in Allah.

Like:

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's Cause." The questioner again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To perform Hajj (Pilgrim age to Mecca) 'Mubrur, (which is accepted by Allah and is performed with the intention of seeking Allah's pleasure only and not to show off and without committing a sin and in accordance with the traditions of the Prophet)."

Sahih Bukhari.

So what exactly is preventing you from being a Muslim if you follow the Hadith might be a more appropriate question. I mean, it's a bit like saying, why can't an atheist believe in god? What's stopping him? Well, nothing really, it's just that it's hard to keep being an atheist if you start believing in god.

 

[Commoner]

Right, and now, since clearly that was poor wording, I say follow A Hadith. And I was presenting a hypothetical, and did mention (if I remember correctly) that I wasn't absolutely sure if any Hadith actually were able to be followed without being a Muslim.

Well...I don't know. Every other word is Allah, so you'd have to be really picky. But really, it's all just semantics. The hadith are not just random thoughts, without any underlying theme, without a specific "agenda". I find it disingenuous to say that a non-Muslim could follow "a" hadith while having to disregard all the supernatural (sub)context.

But hey, if someone wants to claim that for themselves, I'm fine with that. I just don't think it's a resonable thing to do, nor do I think there's anyone like that actually out there. :foot:

I mean, why would you say you follow "a hadith" instead of just saying the actual principle (or whatever) you believe in. It's like saying: "I follow a commandment" instead of saying "lying is bad", and forgetting to mention that "oh, that's right - I don't acutally believe it to be a commandment from god". That's not being serious now, is it?

If the authority has no actual meaning to you - then the content of "a" hadith is not "a hadith" anymore. Just like not killing is not a commandment to me. It's simply a principle I follow, but not because it is a commandment - for that I would have to believe in god.

 

[kai]

Nothing. What's the first thing you'll have to do (according to the Hadith)? - believe in Allah.

Like:

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle was asked, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and His Apostle (Muhammad). The questioner then asked, "What is the next (in goodness)? He replied, "To participate in Jihad in Allah's Cause." The questioner again asked, "What is the next (in goodness)?" He replied, "To perform Hajj (Pilgrim age to Mecca) 'Mubrur, (which is accepted by Allah and is performed with the intention of seeking Allah's pleasure only and not to show off and without committing a sin and in accordance with the traditions of the Prophet)."

Sahih Bukhari.

So what exactly is preventing you from being a Muslim if you follow the Hadith might be a more appropriate question. I mean, it's a bit like saying, why can't an atheist believe in god? What's stopping him? Well, nothing really, it's just that it's hard to keep being an atheist if you start believing in god.

I meant cherry picking the Hadith to suit yourself.

 

[Commoner]

I meant cherry picking the Hadith to suit yourself.

But I never objected to that. It just isn't "following the Hadith".

 

[kai]

But I never objected to that. It just isn't "following the Hadith".

i see! you mean its not following Sunnah, its theoretically possible to follow any hadith you want. But to follow the whole lot (sunnah) would make you Muslim.

By jove i think ive got it.

 

[cottage]

I'm done here. It's clear that I can't articulate what I'm trying to say very well.

Besides, Cottage, you're too difficult for me to debate with (at no fault of yours). I'll stick to "easy" mode for now. Later.

Okay, we agree to disagree but part on friendly terms, then.:takeabow:

 

[Commoner]

i see! you mean its not following Sunnah, its theoretically possible to follow any hadith you want. But to follow the whole lot (sunnah) would make you Muslim.

By jove i think ive got it.

Duh.

It's one thing to pick what you like because you agree with the idea, it's another thing to give it significance because of what they are (who they are from). To follow a hadith as a hadith is a bit like following a commandment as a commandment. Unless it actually is a commandment to you (i.e. from God/Jesus...), you're not actually following the commandment - even though you agree with the content and take it as one of your principles. You're simply "following" that idea - without the authority which "commandment" and "hadith" imply being significant in any way.

 

[Riverwolf]

Okay, we agree to disagree but part on friendly terms, then.:takeabow:

Okay.

PUPPIES!!!uppy:uppy:uppy:uppy:

^_^

 

[kai]

Duh.

It's one thing to pick what you like because you agree with the idea, it's another thing to give it significance because of what they are (who they are from). To follow a hadith as a hadith is a bit like following a commandment as a commandment. Unless it actually is a commandment to you (i.e. from God/Jesus...), you're not actually following the commandment - even though you agree with the content and take it as one of your principles. You're simply "following" that idea - without the authority which "commandment" and "hadith" imply being significant in any way.

yep thats right, so i can follow one or two or a few Hadith because i agree with the content and i dont have to be a muslim.