Islamic prohibition on rape

[flysky]

I asked you two questions, you only answered me one. I am stilling for your second answer.

Regarding your example of modern Muslim countries all I have to say that is non of them follow Islamic Laws 100% and Pakistan is the worst example.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I have appreciated the articles found at the Muslim Women's League website.

 

[JerryL]

I asked you two questions, you only answered me one. I am stilling for your second answer.

I'll bet I've already responded. Repeat your question and I'll tell you which post has my reply.

Regarding your example of modern Muslim countries all I have to say that is non of them follow Islamic Laws 100% and Pakistan is the worst example.

You are right. We can't appeal to popularity and see what modern people *think* the Quran says to etermine what it actually says.

Similarly, what a modern person thinks a passage means isn't important unless he can support it. So what does the Quran say about rape?

That was my initial quesiton. The answer appears to be "almost nothing".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That was my initial quesiton. The answer appears to be "almost nothing".

Now that you've supplied the answer that you yourself were looking for all along, ...

• what precisely are you intending to imply, and
• would it not have been more honest to simply state this presumption in your opening thread?

Maybe it's time for you to take responsibility for your argument-by-innuendo.

 

[JerryL]

Now that you've supplied the answer that you yourself were looking for all along, ...

• what precisely are you intending to imply, and
• would it not have been more honest to simply state this presumption in your opening thread?

Maybe it's time for you to take responsibility for your argument-by-innuendo.

I didn't presume that would be the answer. I was aware of the Biblical position, having read that book. I've only read parts of the Quran and was honestly unaware of whether it did or did not have a prohibition. Had someone come up with a verse that said "don't rape; punish those that do with 100 lashes", I would have said "thanks" and it would have been a short conversation.

Had the only answer been "there's no prohibition" I would have said "thanks" and it would have been a short conversation.

What I got was a lot of people saying that it was fobidden and then giving shoddy support. I've got this odd thing where I'm mostly interested in truth, so I pointed out the problems in the support.

I don't actually care one way or the other whether there is a prohibition for rape in the Quran or not. I never did. I was simply curious. I think that's what's confused a lot of people, including you. You presuppose I have some agenda beyond finding a truthful answer to a question that came to my mind.

To answer your questions:

1. Nothing
2. Can't as there was none.
​

 

[Merlin]

Think your daughter will convert?

If my daughter decided to become a Moslem, I would be very happy for her and would also be happy to join in both the wedding and occasional services in the mosque. Equally, if she decided to become a Roman Catholic I would do exactly the same. I could repeat the statement across all other religions that are represented on this website.

Perhaps one of the differences between us, is that I believe absolutely in God. I just do not believe there is one unique path to Him, or one religion which has primacy.

 

[flysky]

I didn't presume that would be the answer. I was aware of the Biblical position, having read that book. I've only read parts of the Quran and was honestly unaware of whether it did or did not have a prohibition. Had someone come up with a verse that said "don't rape; punish those that do with 100 lashes", I would have said "thanks" and it would have been a short conversation.

Had the only answer been "there's no prohibition" I would have said "thanks" and it would have been a short conversation.

What I got was a lot of people saying that it was fobidden and then giving shoddy support. I've got this odd thing where I'm mostly interested in truth, so I pointed out the problems in the support.

I don't actually care one way or the other whether there is a prohibition for rape in the Quran or not. I never did. I was simply curious. I think that's what's confused a lot of people, including you. You presuppose I have some agenda beyond finding a truthful answer to a question that came to my mind.



To answer your questions:

1. Nothing

2. Can't as there was none.

​

Rape is one kind of oppression. God condemns oppression of any kind. We are commanded to maintain moral behaviour. God forbids adultery. God forbids prostitution and forgives the girls forced into committing prostitution. And all bad behavior is condemned. What more would anyone want? In Quran it say clear to follow Prophet Muhammed and as seen in the above post he did punish the person to death and we follow that.
​

 

[flysky]

I'll bet I've already responded. Repeat your question and I'll tell you which post has my reply.

You are right. We can't appeal to popularity and see what modern people *think* the Quran says to etermine what it actually says.

Similarly, what a modern person thinks a passage means isn't important unless he can support it. So what does the Quran say about rape?

That was my initial quesiton. The answer appears to be "almost nothing".

No you have not answered my question. My question was simple what do you believe in? And none of my business is not the right answer because to explain you we have to know the persons level of understanding.

 

[JerryL]

Rape is one kind of oppression. God condemns oppression of any kind.

Please support your claim that, to the author of the Quran, Rape was a kind of opression.

God forbids adultery. God forbids prostitution and forgives the girls forced into committing prostitution. And all bad behavior is condemned.

Please support your claim that rape, seperated from the possability that the sex was illicit, is "bad behavior" to the author of the quran.

In Quran it say clear to follow Prophet Muhammed and as seen in the above post he did punish the person to death and we follow that.

Yes. The man was punished for his crime and the women was fogiven for her crime. The question is "what was the cirme".

If the crime was "rape", then the woman never committed one to be forgiven for. The passage is confucing. If the crime was "illicit sex", then the woman was forgiven because her participation was coerced, and the man was killed because his was not. In this case, the fact that the sex was coerced is irrellevent except as a defense for the woman.

I think that the latter scenerio makes more sense to a plain reading; and based on what else has been said. You've asserted otherwise but have not supported.

No you have not answered my question. My question was simple what do you believe in? And none of my business is not the right answer because to explain you we have to know the persons level of understanding.

What I believe as it relates to my level of understanding on this topic was covered in post #100.

I believe that, in the passage cited, the man was stoned to death for having sex. The fact that the sex was non-consentual in incidental to the man's punsihment, only serving to remove culpability from the woman.

I believe this because of the "Allah fogives you" comment to the woman. I believe this because of the lack of a punishment for, or even direct command against such an act. I believe it because stoning to death is not the proscribed punishment for and unmarried man raping a woman in the Sharia (only for a married man). I believe it because the parent religions lacked prohibition agaisnt rape (I understand the Jews may have added one since... but I'm not clear that one existed at 500 CE). Considering how much emphasis the Quran puts on men's lust and women and objects of lust (for example, all the requirements for Hijaab), I would have expected to see this covered directly. - Post #100, Jerry
​

 

[flysky]

Please support your claim that, to the author of the Quran, Rape was a kind of opression.

Please support your claim that rape, seperated from the possability that the sex was illicit, is "bad behavior" to the author of the quran.

Yes. The man was punished for his crime and the women was fogiven for her crime. The question is "what was the cirme".

If the crime was "rape", then the woman never committed one to be forgiven for. The passage is confucing. If the crime was "illicit sex", then the woman was forgiven because her participation was coerced, and the man was killed because his was not. In this case, the fact that the sex was coerced is irrellevent except as a defense for the woman.

I think that the latter scenerio makes more sense to a plain reading; and based on what else has been said. You've asserted otherwise but have not supported.



What I believe as it relates to my level of understanding on this topic was covered in post #100.

I believe that, in the passage cited, the man was stoned to death for having sex. The fact that the sex was non-consentual in incidental to the man's punsihment, only serving to remove culpability from the woman.


I believe this because of the "Allah fogives you" comment to the woman. I believe this because of the lack of a punishment for, or even direct command against such an act. I believe it because stoning to death is not the proscribed punishment for and unmarried man raping a woman in the Sharia (only for a married man). I believe it because the parent religions lacked prohibition agaisnt rape (I understand the Jews may have added one since... but I'm not clear that one existed at 500 CE). Considering how much emphasis the Quran puts on men's lust and women and objects of lust (for example, all the requirements for Hijaab), I would have expected to see this covered directly. - Post #100, Jerry

​

You got me wrong. I want to know what you believe regarding Faith. Are you Jew, christian, etc.

 

[TashaN]

Please support your claim that rape, seperated from the possability that the sex was illicit, is "bad behavior" to the author of the quran.

It's obvious that when you say author so you mean that Quran was man made which is unacceptable for Muslims even though you believe it wasn't from God " and i want you to respect what others believe in so when you talk about Quran so please mention it as THE WORD OF GOD not like the way you are describing it so we may coopereate with you in your threads if you are interested to know more about Islam.

So, one of your pervious posts may be more accurate if you said:
Please support your claim that, to God (Allah), Rape was a kind of opression.

instead of:

Please support your claim that, to the author of the Quran, Rape was a kind of opression.

Thank you

 

[JerryL]

No you have not answered my question. My question was simple what do you believe in? And none of my business is not the right answer because to explain you we have to know the persons level of understanding.

You got me wrong. I want to know what you believe regarding Faith. Are you Jew, christian, etc.

What religion I am sayas nothing about my level of understanding. It's off-topic.

 

[JerryL]

It's obvious that when you say author so you mean that Quran was man made which is unacceptable for Muslims even though you believe it wasn't from God "

I'm not sure how that is or is not obvious. I didn't mention who authored it nor who inspired the author... I'm merely pointing out tha what a word means to you or I is not important when understanding the meaning of a text. What is important is understanding what it ment to the author.

and i want you to respect what others believe in so when you talk about Quran so please mention it as THE WORD OF GOD not like the way you are describing it so we may coopereate with you in your threads if you are interested to know more about Islam.

That would be disrepectful to the beliefs of those who do not believe the Quran is the word of God. Apparently by "others" you refer exclusively to Muslims.

That said: In this thread I neither assert nor refute claims of God's involvement in the creation of the Quran. I don't see that who the author is has much relevence to the discussion, unless you wish to use something we know about the author as material in interpreting the text.

So, I'll address authorship if a point is brougth up which makes authorship important to the topic. Thusfar, no such point has been raised, so I assert no opinion as to whose word it is or is not.

So, one of your pervious posts may be more accurate if you said:
Please support your claim that, to God (Allah), Rape was a kind of opression.

You might argue that it's more specific, but it's not more accurate.

"I met the author of 'Red Storm Rising'"
"I met Tom Clancy".

Both are equally accurate. The difference is that yours makes a statement of fact (which may or may nor offend) and mine is entirely neutral... but this is entirely a non-issue. In order to support that rape is a type of opression which is forbidden under the "don't opress" rule (I'm assuming such a rule exists); one must establish that the author of the "don't opress" rule, whomever that may be (God, Muhammed, or the Easter Bunny), believed rape to be a type of opression.

I intend no offence, and I'm quite certain that "the author" leaves no legetimate room for offence. I'm genuinely surprised you are taking umbrige; but if you cannot continue in this thread because of it, I thank your for your participation and will talk to you elsewhere sometime.

 

[TashaN]

That would be disrepectful to the beliefs of those who do not believe the Quran is the word of God. Apparently by "others" you refer exclusively to Muslims.

I have no idea why you ASSUMED that i was referring "others" exclusively to Muslims.

I guess you have unnormal power in reading my mind, who knows?

when i said "others" i meant any and all beliefs including mine but not exclusively as you think so.

I intend no offence, and I'm quite certain that "the author" leaves no legetimate room for offence.

ok, sorry just it's a misunderstanding and this was my opnion because i didn't like the way you used it and others may see it as normal but it wasn't so for me.

I'm genuinely surprised you are taking umbrige; but if you cannot continue in this thread because of it, I thank your for your participation and will talk to you elsewhere sometime.

I didn't say i'll stop in this thread because of it that's because i stopped already in this thread before i post my pervious post about Allah & the author thing because i already gave you all what i know using my little knowledge in order to help you to understand but i couldn't help. So, maybe other members in here can expand with you in the topic in case they have information about your topic more than me.

I hope you can understand.

Peace be upon you.

 

[JerryL]

I have no idea why you ASSUMED that i was referring "others" exclusively to Muslims.

I guess you have unnormal power in reading my mind, who knows?

when i said "others" i meant any and all beliefs including mine but not exclusively as you think so.

That statement runs contrary to elements of what you said. When I initailly responded, I outlined WHY your "others" was muslim-specific.

and i want you to respect what others believe in so when you talk about Quran so please mention it as THE WORD OF GOD

Non-Muslims do not believe that the Quran is the word of God. Therefore, to assert that the Quran was the word of God (which is your request) would therefore be DISREPECTFUL to non-Muslim beliefs; asserting that they were wrong.

Regardless, I have not inferred that the Quran was not the word of God in this post. You are hacking at a straw-man.

ok, sorry just it's a misunderstanding and this was my opnion because i didn't like the way you used it and others may see it as normal but it wasn't so for me.

One cannot please all of the people all of the time.

I'm glad that's all sorted out. Let's either get back to the topic or stop entirely.

 

[TashaN]

I'm glad that's all sorted out. Let's either get back to the topic or stop entirely.

I'm afriad that you couldn't see the last part of my pervious post ACCIDINTALLY but no harm in repeating it

I didn't say i'll stop in this thread because of it that's because i stopped already in this thread before i post my pervious post about Allah & the author thing because i already gave you all what i know using my little knowledge in order to help you to understand but i couldn't help. So, maybe other members in here can expand with you in the topic in case they have information about your topic more than me.

I hope you can understand.

Peace be upon you.

 

[flysky]

What religion I am sayas nothing about my level of understanding. It's off-topic.

Yes it does my friend. You know something good luck and enjoy your arguement. I pray and hope you will understand one day. One suggestion to you
Start from A then go to B instead of jumping to R and trying to act smart. I would suggest you start from Introduction to Islam and then come to that other topics.

 

[JerryL]

Yes it does my friend.

Riiight. I'm sure that's why you couldn't offer any support for that. Would you like me to make one up and assert it? OK. I worship the Triune Goddessess as revealed in the tomes of "Zelda".

You know something good luck and enjoy your arguement. I pray and hope you will understand one day. One suggestion to you Start from A then go to B instead of jumping to R and trying to act smart. I would suggest you start from Introduction to Islam and then come to that other topics.

So then you can't offer any support for your claim; nor any rebuttal for my comments on the passages presented? Because of that, you would like to patronize, change topic, and hurl a few insults in the hopes that no one notices that you have no ground on which to stand. Got-it.

One suggestion. Start with a neutral position on a topic and then see what the information actually says. Discuss a topic by talking about the actual topic. Support your assertions, and explain the reasons for them. Avoid wandering off on non-topics, and ad-hominyms. Try to get your ego the heck out of your debate / discussion methodology, and stop projecting your own problems on others.

 

[TashaN]

Hi, just i wanted to tell you that i made a mistake when i told you that women can simply refuse and to tell her husband as you did give an example "get over it". Such a word must not come from a muslim woman to her husband. The purpose of marriage may differ in Islam than the others because Muslims can't simply have sex without marriage whether they were men or women and i understand that for you it's MAY be normal that if your wife said JerryL get over it .. no sex for you .. so you may go to have sex with other girls in any bar, old girlfriend and maybe from streets at night and your wife may do the same IF she think it's ok. For muslims we save our love and sex relationship for our real partner to our spouse ONLY. Even though muslims did adultry but they know it's wrong and it would be a sin for them and they have to ask for forgivness from God. Therefore, there is no point and no motivation for any woman in islam to refuse sex for no reason that's why as a muslim i didn't get what you mean by refusing sex for no reason but i realize after that it's ok for most of people nowdays to have sex out of marriage relationship so that's why it's ok for women to refue easy because they may enjoy with others. So, if a woman refused so the man have no way to enjoy except with his own wife. That's why some scholar said it would be a sin if she did so with her husband because he may do an adultry in case he couldn't do it with his wife.

God gave us the soloution in case a woman in islam disobey her husband without any VALID reason.

[34] Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly that you don't break a bone nor harm thier body); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High, Great (above you all).
(Quran 4:34)

Allah is the most wise and all knowing and he knows his creatures more than we do and he made these laws for us for our happiness and for our own benfit.

 

[jasonxooe]

hello
i want to chat with you
can you give me the chance ?