Isn’t Islam an idol worshiping religion?

[K.Venugopal]

Hinduism is only second to Islamism in creating high adult illiteracy. India has the largest adult illiteracy totalling 287 million adults who are illiterate in India.
And just like 800 million illiterate Muslims cannot read the Quran. Most Hindus cannot read their holy scriptures or even bother to read it.

Even among the educated Hindus, most do not practice meditation or apply their religious beliefs in their lives.

The illiterate may not necessarily lack in wisdom.

Incidentally - you cannot create illiteracy. Every one is born illiterate. You can create literacy through formal education. Though being literate is not enough to make a man educated.

 

[K.Venugopal]

I wouldn't call it idolatry, just perhaps limited understanding. Some Muslims do believe God is within, Sufis.

Believing God is within does not go far enough. You have to realize God as being yourself. Till then God is an idol.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Try to imagine God the creator of the universe and all things in existence would ask man to cut his foreskin as an offering and a sign of obedience to the covenant made with Abraham.

If God found the foreskin offensive he could have created man without it. It is just one of the many ridiculous ways man has portrayed and trivialized God.

That is about making God a caricature.

 

[K.Venugopal]

The very term "idol worship" is a judgmental projection about other theistic practices projected by outsiders. I would like us to erase it from our vocabulary.

The term 'idol worship' is not necessarily a pejorative term.

 

[Vinayaka]

Is there a point of view about logic? What is logical is logical unless it is proved illogical.

Sure. Most everone has a point of view, in discussing religion, and that POV is "My view is the logical one."

 

[K.Venugopal]

Sure. Most everone has a point of view, in discussing religion, and that POV is "My view is the logical one."

One can claim anything but that does not make it logical.

 

[Vinayaka]

One can claim anything but that does not make it logical.

According to the person making the statement, it is. You have a sound definition for logical?

 

[Desert Snake]

Islam says Allah is outside us. That which is outside us is an object. Thus a call to worship Allah is a call to worship an object. Idol worship is worship of objects.

This is actually quite fascinating. I had to read this OP, then come back to the thread before I realized what you meant.

In the purest technical sense, it would not be idol worship without a formed object, which Deities aren't. Deities might have 'form' think Jesus for example, but it is not an "object".

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Believing God is within does not go far enough. You have to realize God as being yourself. Till then God is an idol.

So this is just another "one consciousness" propaganda thread. No, thanks.

 

[Desert Snake]

So this is just another "one consciousness" propaganda thread. No, thanks.

Agreed.:highfive:

 

[Quintessence]

The term 'idol worship' is not necessarily a pejorative term.

I have a very hard time seeing it in any other fashion. It may be not intended as such, but when a monotheist calls Pagans worshiping their gods "idolaters" they do so because they refuse to acknowledge the validity of our gods. It's pejorative, whether they intend for that or not.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Definitions whether from practitioners or outsiders should be logical to be acceptable - should it not?

Outsiders tend be very wrong at times. Even in anthropology until relatively recently ago it was believed there were no matriarchal societies in existence, yet they had actually observed some of them but they didn't realize it.
It's always best to get the thoughts of an insider instead of relying on assumptions.

 

[Sleeppy]

Praying in a certain manner, or in a certain direction is worship of an ideal. Free will is polytheism.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Okay, one might claim that Muslims worship Kaaba and the Black Stone. I'm an orthodox Muslim and I've never ever touched or directly looked at the Black Stone, or even had it in mind when performing prayers. Not I have the intention of it and I don't really care about it much.

As for the Kaaba, we use it to have a unified direction for prayers. Or are we suppose to leave it to the mass to decide to which direction to pray which will make chaos like finding a group of people praying together but in different directions? Or maybe an opening for individuals to come up with idea out of their minds? Having regulations is what naturally make people organized.

We only pray to the direction of Kaaba because we were told by God to do it. And He simply said to make our direction to it, nothing else.

Do you know that if we cannot find the direction of Kaaba, we can pray at any direction? If so, how could it mean we worship Kaaba? If we did, then praying to the wrong direction is plain wrong in the doctrine. Yes, this was mention in the Quran as well as direct instructions from God.

I suggest to not think too much about philosophies like God is within or with(out) (isn't the opposite of "in" "out"? ). God is up there in the heaven (not as in paradise, but as in above) but his knowledge is everywhere. If God is within, that would mean He also goes to inappropriate place like the bathroom with us, which is offensive to Him. Hmm, don't wanna give an example that involves making love . Wait, that would also mean that there is a clone of God in each and everyone of us? Freaky

Um, in the prayer we direct what we say to God, not Kaaba, like for example at the ground bowing we say other misc prayers (within the physical prayer) and we only say God in it, not Kaaba.

Different sects of Islam could have different views, but the above is what my ancestors and I learned through the years as descendants from the home of Islam, Makkah. I'm a Makkan native.

I have used object in the sense of that which is separate from "I" - the subject.

Oh, the linguistic "object". Sorry about that

Agreed.:highfive:

Haha

 

[K.Venugopal]

This is actually quite fascinating. I had to read this OP, then come back to the thread before I realized what you meant.

In the purest technical sense, it would not be idol worship without a formed object, which Deities aren't. Deities might have 'form' think Jesus for example, but it is not an "object".

If you need to worship - you need to worship something. Even if you worship something in your mind - you would need to 'objectify' it. Isn't uttering a word itself objectifying an idea? Only in silence and stillness can you move away from objectifying. Then you become your own pure self - where the other does not exist as a separate entity but as you.

 

[K.Venugopal]

So this is just another "one consciousness" propaganda thread. No, thanks.

Propaganda thread? Not really. Just clarifying to myself by thinking aloud.

 

[Sabour]

Islam says Allah is outside us. That which is outside us is an object. Thus a call to worship Allah is a call to worship an object. Idol worship is worship of objects.

I think Chapter 112 and chapter 2 verse 255 of the Quraan would answer that clearly

1 Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
2 Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
3 He neither begets nor is born,
4 Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

2:255

Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.

 

[DawudTalut]

You know the Kaaba and especially the meteorite has more to do with idol worship than what you are writing about.

=============================================================================================================


EXPLANATION ABOUT BLACK STONE AND KABA – BY AHMADIYYA MUSLIM PROMISED MESSIAH MAHDI (ON WHOM BE PEACE)
1= Black stone is there to show as model for a spiritual matter. In Islam, Allah has placed models for important commandments. For example, it is commanded that a believer should offer his or her sacrifice through their self and faculties. And physical sacrifice of animal is token model for this philosophy. Blood and meat of animal do not reach to Allah but only the righteousness of heart reaches…..Meaning that a believer should live life as if his or her low self-desires are sacrificed by their own hands. They live according to guidance of God.


2= Parallel to spiritual matters, Allah makes physical matters as model. Kaba is made for that purpose. According to Holy Quran, human is made for worship of God. [it is vast subject: worship indicate recognition, love, fear of losing Him, obedience, paying His and His creation’s right, successful life and Hereafter, meeting Lord ……..]

Worship is of two types:

i-Through humbleness.

ii-Through love and sacrifice.



Explanation:
i- Five daily Islamic Salaat is the worship, in which body stands, bow and prostrate as physical model of the states of soul. Body and soul both offer Salaat. There are prayers in each of these action. In prostration, heart do fall prostrate before Lord. Body and soul affect each other in prayer.



ii- In the second kind of worship through love and sacrifice, body and soul affect each other too. In love, human soul always revolves around beloved and kiss beloved’s place. Similarly, Kaba is physical model for true lovers so that they show their enthusiasm of love. People at Hajj make circuits around kaba in love, they remove their beauties and shave heads, and kiss the black stone as the stone of beloved’s place. This physical fire of love creates heat in spiritual love and soul revolve around the Beloved and metaphorically kisses His station.


There is no idol-worship in it. One kisses one’s friend’s letter too. No Muslim worship Kaba and do not seek anything from blackstone. This is physical model decalred by God Himself. We do sajdah (islamic prostration) at earth but we do not worship earth. We kiss blackstone but not for balckstone. Stone is stone it cannot benefit or hurt to anyone. It is Hand of the beloved which pointed that this stone is model of His station.


[Reference: Based of writings of Ahmadiyya Muslim Promised Messiah and Mahdi (on whom be peace) be peace), Ruhani Khazain, vol 23]

 

[Desert Snake]

If you need to worship - you need to worship something. Even if you worship something in your mind - you would need to 'objectify' it. Isn't uttering a word itself objectifying an idea? Only in silence and stillness can you move away from objectifying. Then you become your own pure self - where the other does not exist as a separate entity but as you.

'idol' has specific meaning, it doesn't just mean 'any thing or person or deity etc.', it usually means something inert, if you made the argument about the symbols in Islam etc there might be more to argue, but relating 'object' to deity to get to idol worship is too much word acrobatics for me.

 

[Vinayaka]

it usually means something inert,

I know of no religion that worships idols from that definition.