Isn’t the concept of free will and praying to God for intervention contradictory concepts?

[QuestioningMind]

I hold that God possesses foreknowledge of our choices, yet none of our choices were ordained by him to happen. Rather, because of his foreknowledge, his ordained plan has already taken our choices into account. God's plan is irresistible, but our choices which that plan takes into account were of our own total freedom. Thus it is us, and not God, that hold all responsibility for sin.

God already knows our prayers, and answers them according to his will.

It sounds as if you're saying that our personal choices don't matter. That is to say, it's impossible for me to make a wrong choice, since whatever choice I make is all part of God's plan. This means that there are times when turning away from God is the RIGHT choice, because if I were to choose to turn towards God, it would conflict with His plan. Should I murder this innocent child or should I not murder this innocent child? According to your logic, whatever I choose to do is the RIGHT choice, since it's all part of God's ultimate plan. Where exactly is my 'freedom of choice' involved here? It sounds far more as if we're being given the illusion of free choice.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Understanding why God has not intervened in the atrocities perpetrated on the world by wicked men escapes Christendom's churches for the most part.
Even when the Pope was asked by a 12 year old why God allows terrible things happen to children, he could not give her an answer.

It has to do with who is the legitimate ruler of mankind...God or the devil?
Satan basically accused God of being a heartless dictator who kept things from his children that they had a right to have.
So instead of dealing with the devil directly by punishing him for his rebellion, he used him to test out all of his children both in heaven and on earth. Angels have free will too.
God has allowed the devil to rule the world with very little restriction. Why? The account in Job tells us. (Read Job 1 & 2)

The devil claimed that humans only served God for selfish reasons; that God's blessing was the only thing that Job was interested in and that if he was permitted to take away everything he valued, that he would curse God and leave him. God knew the faith of this man and had confidence in his ability to withstand such a difficult test. He permitted the devil to take all he had, including his 10 children, but he was not permitted to touch the man physically.
Job passed the test with flying colors. Despite the enormous losses he suffered, Job did not curse God nor did he leave him. His faith stayed intact.

Not content, the devil demanded another test, this time to take the man to the edge of death. So God permitted the devil to afflict Job physically this time but he was not allowed to take his life.
Despite enormous pain, Job remained faithful and did not curse God or leave him. Even when his wife told him to "curse God and die" he rebuked her, but I'm sure he understood that his losses and suffering were hers too and yet she was not the target.

Still retaining his faith, the very ill Job was visited by three so called comforters who accused him of sinning against God and being punished for it. He knew he hadn't and in his weakened state tried to defend himself. All the while Job did not know that his suffering was brought on him by satan, yet he did not waver even when he thought it might have come from God. (Job 2:9, 10)

The account of Job is in the scriptures for a very good reason. In the testing of Job, the devil implicated all mankind in his accusations. He said "everything a man has he will give in exchange for his life" He didn't say "everything Job has" but "everything a man has", meaning all of us.

Rulership of this world was handed over to the devil for two reasons.
1) To show us what rulership without God would result in. (We are not designed to rule ourselves. Jer 10:23)
2) So that humans could prove to the devil that they will serve God unselfishly, no matter what hardships he brings on them.

The devil has used every tactic in the book to get humans to curse God and leave him. He has succeeded with many.

All the atrocities committed down through history have been perpetrated by men under influence from God's adversary. He can give ruling power to whomever he wants. (Luke 4:5, 6)

So God will not interfere with the devil's reign until he brings the rulership of his kingdom to this earth, having tested mankind and proven that the devil could not turn all humans against him. This is why Jesus taught us to pray for God's kingdom to "come" and for his "will to be done on earth as it is in heaven".

The end of Job's story is the really good part....it is also pictorial of our own future if we remain faithful.

"As for Jehovah, he blessed the end of Job afterward more than his beginning, so that he came to have fourteen thousand sheep and six thousand camels and a thousand spans of cattle and a thousand she-asses. 13 He also came to have seven sons and three daughters. .....And no women were found as pretty as Job’s daughters in all the land, and their father proceeded to give them an inheritance in among their brothers. 16 And Job continued living after this a hundred and forty years and came to see his sons and his grandsons—four generations. 17 And gradually Job died, old and satisfied with days." (Job 42:12-17)

No matter what we suffer, God can not only strengthen us to endure the trial, but He can reverse it and even erase the bad memories. He promised in Isaiah 65:17, 18.....

“For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart. 18 But exult, you people, and be joyful forever in what I am creating."

It will be worth all the effort to gain the smile of approval from the God who had enough faith in us to allow the devil to do his best to get us to leave him.
I'm not letting the devil win...what about you?

Understanding why God has not intervened in the atrocities perpetrated on the world by wicked men escapes Christendom's churches for the most part.
Even when the Pope was asked by a 12 year old why God allows terrible things happen to children, he could not give her an answer.

It has to do with who is the legitimate ruler of mankind...God or the devil?
Satan basically accused God of being a heartless dictator who kept things from his children that they had a right to have.
So instead of dealing with the devil directly by punishing him for his rebellion, he used him to test out all of his children both in heaven and on earth. Angels have free will too.
God has allowed the devil to rule the world with very little restriction. Why? The account in Job tells us. (Read Job 1 & 2)

The devil claimed that humans only served God for selfish reasons; that God's blessing was the only thing that Job was interested in and that if he was permitted to take away everything he valued, that he would curse God and leave him. God knew the faith of this man and had confidence in his ability to withstand such a difficult test. He permitted the devil to take all he had, including his 10 children, but he was not permitted to touch the man physically.
Job passed the test with flying colors. Despite the enormous losses he suffered, Job did not curse God nor did he leave him. His faith stayed intact.

Not content, the devil demanded another test, this time to take the man to the edge of death. So God permitted the devil to afflict Job physically this time but he was not allowed to take his life.
Despite enormous pain, Job remained faithful and did not curse God or leave him. Even when his wife told him to "curse God and die" he rebuked her, but I'm sure he understood that his losses and suffering were hers too and yet she was not the target.

Still retaining his faith, the very ill Job was visited by three so called comforters who accused him of sinning against God and being punished for it. He knew he hadn't and in his weakened state tried to defend himself. All the while Job did not know that his suffering was brought on him by satan, yet he did not waver even when he thought it might have come from God. (Job 2:9, 10)

The account of Job is in the scriptures for a very good reason. In the testing of Job, the devil implicated all mankind in his accusations. He said "everything a man has he will give in exchange for his life" He didn't say "everything Job has" but "everything a man has", meaning all of us.

Rulership of this world was handed over to the devil for two reasons.
1) To show us what rulership without God would result in. (We are not designed to rule ourselves. Jer 10:23)
2) So that humans could prove to the devil that they will serve God unselfishly, no matter what hardships he brings on them.

The devil has used every tactic in the book to get humans to curse God and leave him. He has succeeded with many.

All the atrocities committed down through history have been perpetrated by men under influence from God's adversary. He can give ruling power to whomever he wants. (Luke 4:5, 6)

So God will not interfere with the devil's reign until he brings the rulership of his kingdom to this earth, having tested mankind and proven that the devil could not turn all humans against him. This is why Jesus taught us to pray for God's kingdom to "come" and for his "will to be done on earth as it is in heaven".

The end of Job's story is the really good part....it is also pictorial of our own future if we remain faithful.

"As for Jehovah, he blessed the end of Job afterward more than his beginning, so that he came to have fourteen thousand sheep and six thousand camels and a thousand spans of cattle and a thousand she-asses. 13 He also came to have seven sons and three daughters. .....And no women were found as pretty as Job’s daughters in all the land, and their father proceeded to give them an inheritance in among their brothers. 16 And Job continued living after this a hundred and forty years and came to see his sons and his grandsons—four generations. 17 And gradually Job died, old and satisfied with days." (Job 42:12-17)

No matter what we suffer, God can not only strengthen us to endure the trial, but He can reverse it and even erase the bad memories. He promised in Isaiah 65:17, 18.....

“For here I am creating new heavens and a new earth; and the former things will not be called to mind, neither will they come up into the heart. 18 But exult, you people, and be joyful forever in what I am creating."

It will be worth all the effort to gain the smile of approval from the God who had enough faith in us to allow the devil to do his best to get us to leave him.
I'm not letting the devil win...what about you?

Personally, if all of the suffering in the word is actually a byproduct of this 'game' that God is playing with Satan, I prefer to protest by not participating at all. What kind of a God allows one of his underlings to goad Him into tormenting the creations He claims to love?

 

[QuestioningMind]

Foreknowledge is simply the fact that God knows what is going to happen because he is not subject to seeing things in a strict temporal sequence. He knows what we will freely do, and we are free because he never compelled any of our actions to happen.

Predetermination is the idea of God actively deciding what will happen including all human decisions. Humans have no freedom in this system. Although some Calvinists play word games in this area.

God has a predetermined plan, but the main contention between Christians is whether or not this plan predetermines human action. As a Catholic, I reject that it does.


We believe God to be both omniscient and non-temporal. The logical consequence is that he has perfect foreknowledge of the future.


He could control us like total robots and prevent all evil if he so chose, he chooses not to because his plan allows him our freedom and the permission of evil so long as he will infallibly bring about our own greatest good for his glory. We and all reality are powerless to even exist were it not God so willing it.


No, it just conflicts with your own ideological doctrines and rather weak objections to the faith.

It sounds as if you are saying that God actually doesn't have a plan, but that he simply look a glimpse into the future, saw what happens, and now claims that as His plan. For instance, if an individual has a choice between doing X and Y and chooses to do X, then THAT is God's plan. However, IF this individual had instead chosen to do Y, then THAT would be God's plan. You're simply saying that whatever anyone chooses with their own free will is God's plan, regardless of the choices they actually make.

 

[JayJayDee]

*I would like to clarify that I do not believe in any God, and I do not believe that any superior entity has a plan over my personal existence, nor over the universe and any life within it. The whole concept of praying to me is confusing and absurd and an insult to any theists intelligence if they truly believe that clasping their hands in prayer, is more helpful than using those same two hands to help somebody in need. If you see a world where you want to resort to getting down on your knees and clasping your hands to speak to a concept residing nowhere but in your head in a vain attempt to change it - maybe it isn't a good God that created it, and watches over it?

This is a very interesting comment.

I see a very convenient excuse for not doing anything on a personal level when people say that they are praying for something or someone. It seems to be the standard response when any problem is brought up. But what are they actually praying for? What are they really expecting their prayer to accomplish?

On Facebook for example, one cannot help but notice how much "prayer" is being said for people in spite of things that cannot and will not change. I am at a loss to know what people think prayer is for? Are they expecting a miracle? How often does one actually happen the way they hope?
Do they think God is going to stop something awful from taking place, when he demonstrates no intervention in the world's affairs....or in the personal tragedies of so many families....so was prayer intended for something entirely different?

I am a believer and I do pray, but not for changes that only God can bring about by means of his kingdom, soon to "come".

My prayers mirror that of Jesus' model prayer.....that the name of God be "hallowed" and cleared of all reproach....that his kingdom, which will set all matters straight on earth, will "come" and put an end to the devil's evil reign. That the will of God can be "done on earth as it is in heaven" soon, because we are far from that now and getting further away by the minute.
That we have enough food to sustain us each day...not wealth and surplus, but sufficiency. We have blurred the line between "wants" and " needs". Imagine if the world's wealth was shared equally with those in need....there would be no homelessness or poverty. And yet many humans often cannot stop making stupid life choices that plunge their lives into misery and then they expect others to bail them out.
And forgiveness....how well are we doing on that score both nationally and personally. Rage seems to be the normal response to everything these days.

Prayer is a personal conversation with God in full knowledge that things are the way they are for a reason and that the Creator will, in his own good time, rectify everything as he promised.
He has also promised us a "helper" in the form of his holy spirit, so that we can remain strong in the face of adversity for the time being. We have "hope" that serves as "an anchor" for our faith, not expecting God to perform miracles in this day and age. Only when Christianity was in its infancy were those miracles (foregleams of the future under the rule of his kingdom) necessary in order for people to believe that God was backing the ministry of his son and of his apostles.

We are living in the final part of the days when relief will come. Our faithfulness and patient endurance will see us gain life. (Matt 24:13)

 

[JayJayDee]

It sounds as if you are saying that God actually doesn't have a plan, but that he simply look a glimpse into the future, saw what happens, and now claims that as His plan. For instance, if an individual has a choice between doing X and Y and chooses to do X, then THAT is God's plan. However, IF this individual had instead chosen to do Y, then THAT would be God's plan. You're simply saying that whatever anyone chooses with their own free will is God's plan, regardless of the choices they actually make.

Well from the human perspective I can understand your view, but taking God's side means understanding why he is contending with the adversary in this way.
He could have put all the rebels to death in a heartbeat, but what would that have proven? Only that God is more powerful. The devil never challenged God's power...he challenged his right as sovereign to set reasonable limits for the exercise of free will in his children.

If the devil slandered his Creator and made false accusations against him, God has virtually challenged him in the heavenly court to legally prove his accusations. He has invited his adversary to provide his witnesses to show that he is not a fit God and law-giver, and God will provide his witnesses for his defence.

If God's rulership over humankind is inferior to the way the devil would do things, then the logical thing to do would be to allow him to prove it. So that is why we see the devil being given a free hand to try his best to prove his case...how is he going so far? Are you loving life in his world? He is trying to cater to the selfishness in humanity because that is what got Adam and his wife to rebel against God's authority.

Who holds all the world's wealth and power....and what are they doing with it?

We have been given ample time to experience how the devil's rulership operates and we can see that the whole world, including the planet itself is groaning under the weight of it.

Abuse of free will is at the bottom of all our woes. Have we learned anything? Only those who can see the value of the lesson and remain faithful to the end, will be given the right to enjoy the life God purposed at the beginning.

We have never lived in a world entirely ruled by the Creator, but I am guessing that the start that he gave Adam and his wife will give us some idea about how wonderful it will be. The question is...who will be there?

 

[Quintessence]

I'm not seeing the contradiction. Outcomes are not fixed unless one is a determinist, and the scenario here supposes free will. Asking an agent for a favor, under the presupposition of free will, means that agent can choose to act (or not) in whatever manner it wishes. There is no guarantee of any particular outcome under a free will paradigm.

I suspect there are some other assumptions that are not being openly stated in the OP, because as it stands, there is no contradiction. I'd wager the OP is also assuming behind the scenes that there is one god, that this one-god is omnibenevolent, and that this omnibenevolent one-god must intervene when prayed to. In that case, sure, there's a contradiction. But without that other stuff in there, not so much.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Well from the human perspective I can understand your view, but taking God's side means understanding why he is contending with the adversary in this way.
He could have put all the rebels to death in a heartbeat, but what would that have proven? Only that God is more powerful. The devil never challenged God's power...he challenged his right as sovereign to set reasonable limits for the exercise of free will in his children.

If the devil slandered his Creator and made false accusations against him, God has virtually challenged him in the heavenly court to legally prove his accusations. He has invited his adversary to provide his witnesses to show that he is not a fit God and law-giver, and God will provide his witnesses for his defence.

If God's rulership over humankind is inferior to the way the devil would do things, then the logical thing to do would be to allow him to prove it. So that is why we see the devil being given a free hand to try his best to prove his case...how is he going so far? Are you loving life in his world? He is trying to cater to the selfishness in humanity because that is what got Adam and his wife to rebel against his authority.

Who holds all the world's wealth and power....and what are they doing with it?

We have been given ample time to experience how the devil's rulership operates and we can see that the whole world, including the planet itself is groaning under the weight of it.

Abuse of free will is at the bottom of all our woes. Have we learned anything? Only those who can see the value of the lesson and remain faithful to the end, will be given the right to enjoy the life God purposed at the beginning.

We have never lived in a world entirely ruled by the Creator, but I am guessing that the start that he gave Adam and his wife will give us some idea about how wonderful it will be. The question is...who will be there?

Now wait a second... So we have a father who loves his child, And when he's confronted by a former colleague who is now his adversary that claims the father is not raising his child properly, you think the only logical response is to allow his adversary to raise his child just so the father can prove how poorly his adversary's parenting skills are? What kind of a father would put his own ego, his need to prove himself right, above the welfare of his child? Why would a child have any respect or love for a father who has such priorities?

 

[JayJayDee]

Now wait a second... So we have a father who loves his child, And when he's confronted by a former colleague who is now his adversary that claims the father is not raising his child properly, you think the only logical response is to allow his adversary to raise his child just so the father can prove how poorly his adversary's parenting skills are? What kind of a father would put his own ego, his need to prove himself right, above the welfare of his child? Why would a child have any respect or love for a father who has such priorities?

None of that describes what God did.

The devil is also a child of God, not a "colleague" of any description.
He is a free-willed being like all of God's children, but he is rebellious and full of envy on account of the worship that God receives. He wanted worship that rightfully only belongs to the Creator. (He gave himself away when he asked Jesus for one act of worship in exchange for all the kingdoms of the world)

His fellow spirit beings are his equal so he could never be a god to them; at best he could become their leader but that is not what he was after. When lower material creatures were brought into existence, he saw his opportunity to become a god to them. He is more powerful than they are and he is a master of deception. His activity in the earth demonstrates how good he is at his craft.

It's a bit like a science student showing his professor up to be wrong in his calculations and questioning his credentials in front of all the other students. The professor has two choices....pull rank and have the student expelled and then have half the class wonder if he was right......or let him prove the professor's teachings are wrong.

Where is the greater lesson for both the student and the rest of the class?

All free will creatures benefit from the object lesson in the long term. The end does indeed justify the means. No one suffers longer than a short lifetime, which when compared to eternity, hardly rates as a blip on the radar....and precedents are set so that rebellion can never happen again. Free will is preserved and God's purpose goes ahead as planned.

It's a vast universe and I'm sure that God has plans for all of it, that will take forever and a day to complete. All can go ahead with no impediments.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I'm not seeing the contradiction. Outcomes are not fixed unless one is a determinist, and the scenario here supposes free will. Asking an agent for a favor, under the presupposition of free will, means that agent can choose to act (or not) in whatever manner it wishes. There is no guarantee of any particular outcome under a free will paradigm.

I suspect there are some other assumptions that are not being openly stated in the OP, because as it stands, there is no contradiction. I'd wager the OP is also assuming behind the scenes that there is one god, that this one-god is omnibenevolent, and that this omnibenevolent one-god must intervene when prayed to. In that case, sure, there's a contradiction. But without that other stuff in there, not so much.

Really? You don't see a contradiction between claiming that because God has granted human's free will that He cannot intervene in human affairs and then praying to God to intervene on the behalf of a kidnapped little girl? Clearly you either believe that God CAN in fact intervene to stop the kidnapper from harming the child or that all the prayer in the world will not affect what does or does not happen to that little girl. You can't have it both ways.

 

[QuestioningMind]

None of that describes what God did.

The devil is also a child of God, not a "colleague" of any description.
He is a free-willed being like all of God's children, but he is rebellious and full of envy on account of the worship that God receives. He wanted worship that rightfully only belongs to the Creator. (He gave himself away when he asked Jesus for one act of worship in exchange for all the kingdoms of the world)

His fellow spirit beings are his equal so he could never be a god to them; at best he could become their leader but that is not what he was after. When lower material creatures were brought into existence, he saw his opportunity to become a god to them. He is more powerful than they are are a master of deception. His activity in the earth demonstrates how good he is at his craft.

It's a bit like a science student showing his professor up to be wrong in his calculations and questioning his credentials in front of all the other students. The professor has two choices....pull rank and have the student expelled and then have half the class wonder if he was right......or let him prove the professor's teachings are wrong.

Where is the greater lesson for both the student and the rest of the class?

All free will creatures benefit from the object lesson in the long term. The end does indeed justify the means. No one suffers longer than a short lifetime, which when compared to eternity, hardly rates as a blip on the radar....and precedents are set so that rebellion can never happen again. Free will is preserved and God's purpose goes ahead as planned.

It's a vast universe and I'm sure that God has plans for all of it, that will take forever and a day to complete. All can go ahead with no impediments.

Okay, so let's replace 'former colleague' with 'older sibling'. If your eldest child challenged how you were raising your younger children, would your response be to stop parenting your younger children and allow the older sibling, who you know is far less capable than you, to raise his siblings instead? In your attempt to prove yourself right, you'd be willing to sacrifice what's best for your younger children?

As for your classroom analogy... if I had a student who actually was SHOWING that my calculations were wrong, then if I'm an honorable teacher my only recourse would be to admit that the student was right. However, if I had a student who was CLAIMING that my calculations were wrong, my response would NOT be to turn the class over to the student and allow him or her to teach the rest of the class the wrong calculations, so that when they all failed at the end of the year they'd know that my calculations were actually correct. Instead I would demonstrate for both the questioning student and the rest of the class why my calculations were actually correct.

 

[JayJayDee]

Really? You don't see a contradiction between claiming that because God has granted human's free will that He cannot intervene in human affairs and then praying to God to intervene on the behalf of a kidnapped little girl? Clearly you either believe that God CAN in fact intervene to stop the kidnapper from harming the child or that all the prayer in the world will not affect what does or does not happen to that little girl. You can't have it both ways.

I don't believe that anyone can pray for God's intervention in anything. He will intervene only when such an action is in harmony with his purpose. That is not what Prayer is for. Some view it as a some kind of magic incantation when it was never meant to be used like that in the first place.

If we see the Creator as no more than some kind of celestial waiter, waiting for us to snap our fingers at him, when we require something of him, then we will be disappointed.

He has told us what he is doing and why...we need nothing more than that knowledge and the fact that he has promised to provide the strength to endure whatever comes whilst the court case is coming to its conclusion. Prayer doesn't change anything but it keeps us mindful of our reliance on God to see us through another day as these times become more critical.

Our choices are our own and the one running the show down here on earth is having a field day with people's thoughts and emotions. (2 Cor 4:3, 4)

Our prayer for any child will not make a sick child well or a dead child live...nor will it prevent adults from exploiting them or abusing them. Contrary to popular opinion, our Creator is not up there pointing fingers at some people to save and others to harm. "Time and chance befall us all" according to Solomon. Sometimes we are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. We have no control over which country or culture we are born into...or what parents conceived us or the circumstances of that mating.

It will all come out in the wash....just give it time. But remember, God is not restricted to earth years, and the first rebel was not human. Satan and his minions are the primary targets of the lesson, not just us. Humans can destroy life on the earth...angels have the power to derail God's purpose...but only temporarily.

Free will was to be preserved at all costs.....so it must be worth it.

 

[QuestioningMind]

I don't believe that anyone can pray for God's intervention in anything. He will intervene only when such an action is in harmony with his purpose. That is not what Prayer is for. Some view it as a some kind of magic incantation when it was never meant to be used like that in the first place.

If we see the Creator as no more than some kind of celestial waiter, waiting for us to snap our fingers at him, when we require something of him, then we will be disappointed.

He has told us what he is doing and why...we need nothing more than that knowledge and the fact that he has promised to provide the strength to endure whatever comes whilst the court case is coming to its conclusion. Prayer doesn't change anything but it keeps us mindful of our reliance on God to see us through another day as these times become more critical.

Our choices are our own and the one running the show down here on earth is having a field day with people's thoughts and emotions. (2 Cor 4:3, 4)

Our prayer for any child will not make a sick child well or a dead child live...nor will it prevent adults from exploiting them or abusing them. Contrary to popular opinion, our Creator is not up there pointing fingers at some people to save and others to harm. "Time and chance befall us all" according to Solomon. Sometimes we are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. We have no control over which country or culture we are born into...or what parents conceived us or the circumstances of that mating.

It will all come out in the wash....just give it time. But remember, God is not restricted to earth years, and the first rebel was not human. Satan and his minions are the primary targets of the lesson, not just us. Humans can destroy life on the earth...angels have the power to derail God's purpose...but only temporarily.

Free will was to be preserved at all costs.....so it must be worth it.

So the short answer is that you actually DO see a contradiction when people pray for God's intervention, since you claim that this is not what prayer is for.

 

[roger1440]

I remember asking the minister during bible study class why God had not intervened to stop Hitler from slaughtering millions of innocent people in death camps during WWII. The answer was that God had given human beings free will and that He could not intervene to prevent people from exercising that free will. Yet, several months later when the daughter of members of the church was kidnapped, the minister asked everyone to pray to God for the little girl’s safe return.



How does that make any sense? If God could intervene and somehow prevent the kidnapper from doing the little girl harm, then what prevented God from giving Hitler a fatal heart attack after he murdered the first million innocents in his death camps? If on the other hand God has tied His own hands and must allow the kidnapper to exercise his free will, then apparently the kidnapper is going to do whatever his free will prompts him to do, regardless of how hard anyone prays to God.


It seems to me that you can’t have it both ways.

How does it make sense? Praying for others consoles the suffering. The suffering is the ones doing the praying. It may not help the person being prayed for, but it might help the ones doing the praying. Do not pray to change the world. Pray to change how we live within the world. Two prayers come to mind. One is the Lord’s Prayer found in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke. The other is the prayer of Saint Francis.

 

[JayJayDee]

So the short answer is that you actually DO see a contradiction when people pray for God's intervention, since you claim that this is not what prayer is for.

Yes, because I don't subscribe to Christendom's view of prayer at all.

Jesus taught us how to pray and what to pray for......nothing in his instructions mentions praying for miracles of any kind. In fact, praying for God to intervene in any situation is to deny what the scriptures teach about our situation in life and why God permits things to happen. His-non intervention is an important part of the lesson. We can pray for strength to endure suffering but not for it to be withdrawn.

When we are tempted (even Jesus had those) Paul wrote...“Let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall. No temptation has taken you except what is common to men. But God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear, but along with the temptation he will also make the way out in order for you to be able to endure it.” (1 Corinthians 10:12, 13)

That at least is good to know.

 

[NulliuSINverba]

I remember asking the minister during bible study class why God had not intervened to stop Hitler from slaughtering millions of innocent people in death camps during WWII. The answer was that God had given human beings free will and that He could not intervene to prevent people from exercising that free will.

The explanation you were offered certainly isn't supported by scripture. There are several examples from the Bible where God intervenes into human affairs and manipulates the will of human beings:

"And Jehovah said unto Moses, See, I have made thee as God to Pharaoh; and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet. Thou shalt speak all that I command thee; and Aaron thy brother shall speak unto Pharaoh, that he let the children of Israel go out of his land. And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt. But Pharaoh will not hearken unto you, and I will lay my hand upon Egypt, and bring forth my hosts, my people the children of Israel, out of the land of Egypt by great judgments." ~ Exodus 7:1-4

"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go." ~ Exodus 10:20

"So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen." ~ Romans 9:18

"For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie" ~ 2 Thessalonians 2:11

Yet, several months later when the daughter of members of the church was kidnapped, the minister asked everyone to pray to God for the little girl’s safe return. How does that make any sense?

If you truly believe that God has a plan, doesn't it seem dangerous to assume that the kidnapping of little children isn't a part of that plan? God does move in mysterious ways, after all. At least that's the conventional spiel from theists.

If God could intervene and somehow prevent the kidnapper from doing the little girl harm, then what prevented God from giving Hitler a fatal heart attack after he murdered the first million innocents in his death camps?

Because the Bible clearly explains that Hitler's government was ordained by God:

"Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God." ~ Romans 13:1

If on the other hand God has tied His own hands and must allow the kidnapper to exercise his free will, then apparently the kidnapper is going to do whatever his free will prompts him to do, regardless of how hard anyone prays to God.

Perhaps Christians who've had their children kidnapped might find solace in God's blessed directive to Abraham to slaughter his own child? Obviously, it doesn't follow that they should expect any reprieves ... but doesn't it seem like having your child killed by kidnappers would be preferable to having God order you to do the deed yourself?

...

Questions: Or would a good Christian welcome such an opportunity to have their faith tested? And if you believe that God is omnipotent (and hence, already knows the truth about your faith), would that make being ordered to slaughter your own child more meaningful ... or less meaningful?

It seems to me that you can’t have it both ways.

"... with God all things are possible." ~ Matthew 19:26

 

[Glaurung]

It sounds as if you're saying that our personal choices don't matter. That is to say, it's impossible for me to make a wrong choice, since whatever choice I make is all part of God's plan. This means that there are times when turning away from God is the RIGHT choice, because if I were to choose to turn towards God, it would conflict with His plan.

This is the objection of someone who misses the point.

God has a plan, but that plan has not preordained anything in regards to your own choices. Do you really think that your choices have any power to disturb the ultimate will of God? Of course not. God knows the future, but he has not prescribed it. He brings about his plan regardless of how you decide to act.You're assuming a predetermination of the future which I explicitly rejected. Just because God already knows what you're going to do, does not mean he predetermined you to do it. You thus hold all responsibility for your decisions because they are truly yours and not God's.

Should I murder this innocent child or should I not murder this innocent child? According to your logic, whatever I choose to do is the RIGHT choice, since it's all part of God's ultimate plan. Where exactly is my 'freedom of choice' involved here? It sounds far more as if we're being given the illusion of free choice.

As I said, you're failing to grasp the distinction between foreknowledge and predetermination. To understand what I'm saying you must understand the distinction. Which means abandoning your preconceptions about what I'm saying and reading what I'm actually saying.

 

[Glaurung]

It sounds as if you are saying that God actually doesn't have a plan, but that he simply look a glimpse into the future, saw what happens, and now claims that as His plan. For instance, if an individual has a choice between doing X and Y and chooses to do X, then THAT is God's plan

When I say God has a plan, I'm saying that there is an ultimate end to which God is moving the universe, not that he is ordaining each and every event of human action which I have said is a misunderstanding. There is no 'script', but instead a telos. (An ultimate purpose).

I think part of the misunderstanding is that the concept of the telos (final end) is somewhat alien to our way of thinking in the modern world. But this is what I actually mean by 'God's plan'.

 

[Quintessence]

Really? You don't see a contradiction between claiming that because God has granted human's free will that He cannot intervene in human affairs and then praying to God to intervene on the behalf of a kidnapped little girl?

Not really. But this didn't seem to be precisely what you were asking in the OP. It's possible I misread you.

Clearly you either believe that God CAN in fact intervene to stop the kidnapper from harming the child or that all the prayer in the world will not affect what does or does not happen to that little girl. You can't have it both ways.

Why not? As I said, asking for a favor doesn't mean someone will do you a favor, or that it violates free will. If you ask me for a favor, and I choose to do it (or not) how exactly does that contradict your free will?

At any rate, although I don't see a contradiction, I'm also a poor person to argue the point. I don't believe in God (as in the one-god of the classical monotheisms), and I don't believe in free will.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Not really. But this didn't seem to be precisely what you were asking in the OP. It's possible I misread you.



Why not? As I said, asking for a favor doesn't mean someone will do you a favor, or that it violates free will. If you ask me for a favor, and I choose to do it (or not) how exactly does that contradict your free will?

At any rate, although I don't see a contradiction, I'm also a poor person to argue the point. I don't believe in God (as in the one-god of the classical monotheisms), and I don't believe in free will.

You're ignoring the first half of what my minister said, that being that because God has granted human's free will that He cannot intervene in human affairs. IF you accept that as a premise, THEN it is contradictory to say that God can answer a prayer to intervene to save a little girl's life. So if the favor I ask of you is to prevent someone else who you have no control over to not exercise their free will, you wouldn't be able to choose to grant my favor, since it would be beyond your ability to provide.

 

[Quintessence]

You're ignoring the first half of what my minister said, that being that because God has granted human's free will that He cannot intervene in human affairs. IF you accept that as a premise, THEN it is contradictory to say that God can answer a prayer to intervene to save a little girl's life. So if the favor I ask of you is to prevent someone else who you have no control over to not exercise their free will, you wouldn't be able to choose to grant my favor, since it would be beyond your ability to provide.

When a listener doesn't understand what the speaker intends to get across, that does not mean the listener is ignoring the speaker. It means the listener doesn't understand, or that the speaker communicated the point poorly. It was not at all clear to me in the OP that you held the premise "God cannot intervene in human affairs whatsoever, period, the end, full stop." You listed two specific examples where God could intervene, and I interpreted that as "God might not intervene in this situation, but might intervene in this other situation." Hence, based on what you presented in the OP, I really didn't (and still do not) see a contradiction. It struck me as complaining about "but why did you do a favor for this person and not this other person," to which my response is "why not?"

If the above is what you really intended to communicate, then yes, it's obviously a contradiction. However, I'm skeptical that the minister believes in a non-interventionist deity. Isn't that a deist thing, not a Christian thing? So, at this point, I'm just totally confused, and as I'm a pretty disinterested party with respect to this entire topic, don't take it personally if I bow out of the conversation after this post or shortly thereafter.