Isn’t Islam an idol worshiping religion?

[K.Venugopal]

According to the person making the statement, it is. You have a sound definition for logical?

Faith or belief cannot be put to the test of logic. But propositions or premises and arguments regarding faith or belief can certainly be put to the test of logic. When the arguments are consistent with the propositions put forth – that proposition can be said to be logical. Otherwise it would be illogical. My proposition is that Islam is an idol worshiping religion. I have given my arguments for thinking so. Are they consistent with my proposition? It is for the members of Religious Forums to decide.

 

[K.Venugopal]

I think Chapter 112 and chapter 2 verse 255 of the Quraan would answer that clearly

1 Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
2 Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
3 He neither begets nor is born,
4 Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

2:255

Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.

No verse in the Quran says Allah is not separate from you or me.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Body and soul both offer Salaat.

How is soul defined in Islam?

 

[Sabour]

No verse in the Quran says Allah is not separate from you or me.

You missed my point.

The verses state that Allah is the Creator. He is not a creation and that there is nothing like him.

Allah is beyond our understanding so no it is not idol worshiping religion.

If you want me to put it the way you put in the OP I would say anything outside you and me is an object except for Allah. Because anything outside us is creation so they are objects. Whereas Allah is the Creator. He created all the objects, and He created us. But Allah is neither a human nor an object.

Please reread the verses after I explained my point of view

I think Chapter 112 and chapter 2 verse 255 of the Quraan would answer that clearly

1 Say, "He is Allah , [who is] One,
2 Allah , the Eternal Refuge.
3 He neither begets nor is born,
4 Nor is there to Him any equivalent."

2:255

Allah - there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence. Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills. His Kursi extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.

 

[K.Venugopal]

...I would say anything outside you and me is an object except for Allah. Because anything outside us is creation so they are objects. Whereas Allah is the Creator. He created all the objects, and He created us. But Allah is neither a human nor an object.

You say Allah is not an object. But you also say that "...anything outside you and me is an object...". Do you mean you and me are not objects?

 

[Desert Snake]

I know of no religion that worships idols from that definition.

That's backing my argument even more then.

 

[Vinayaka]

That's backing my argument even more then.

It's just some accusation tossed out there by the folks who get a kick out of belittling another religion rather than concentrating on practicing their own.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Propaganda thread? Not really. Just clarifying to myself by thinking aloud.

That's how it looks to me. You're telling everyone who worships a deity as distinct from themselves that they're "idol" worshipers.

 

[K.Venugopal]

That's how it looks to me. You're telling everyone who worships a deity as distinct from themselves that they're "idol" worshipers.

Those who say they are not idol worshipers actually turn out to be idol worshipers. That is the contention of my OP. The only people who can claim not to be idol worshipers are the non-dualists.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Those who say they are not idol worshipers actually turn out to be idol worshipers. That is the contention of my OP. The only people who can claim not to be idol worshipers are the non-dualists.

The problem people are having with this is that "idol" is usually used as a pejorative to denigrate the practice as "idolatry" and "false worship". The implication is that you're worshiping something that's "not real". A more neutral term for images used in religious practice is "cult image".

 

[Quintessence]

Those who say they are not idol worshipers actually turn out to be idol worshipers. That is the contention of my OP. The only people who can claim not to be idol worshipers are the non-dualists.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by non-dualist within the context of this discussion?

 

[K.Venugopal]

The problem people are having with this is that "idol" is usually used as a pejorative to denigrate the practice as "idolatry" and "false worship". The implication is that you're worshiping something that's "not real". A more neutral term for images used in religious practice is "cult image".

No worship is false. The problem arises only when some people insist that their worship alone is true. Fact is all worshipers are in the same boat.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by non-dualist within the context of this discussion?

Worship occurs when there is a separation between the worshiper and the worshiped. When the separation has been transcended you would be in a non-dual state.

 

[Harikrish]

Worship occurs when there is a separation between the worshiper and the worshiped. When the separation has been transcended you would be in a non-dual state.

There is no non-dualistic existence. Physical reality is independent of our perception/awareness/consciousness of it.

Hindus believe maya is the illusory physical universe which our rational minds are not capable of understanding or the cause of our faulty understanding of reality. But to escape physical reality in a transcendental form is only possible with death or non existence because consciousness begins with existence. I think...therefore I am.

 

[Quintessence]

Worship occurs when there is a separation between the worshiper and the worshiped. When the separation has been transcended you would be in a non-dual state.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I see as worship occurring when a person is giving thanks, praise, or devotion to something that they value; whether or not things are perceived as "separated" is not at all relevant to me. So by your understanding, whenever someone is worshiping something that is "separate" this is somehow idolatry? If so, I can't say I agree with this at all, but I think I've learned something of your perspectives at least. XD

 

[Al-Fatihah]

Islam says Allah is outside us. That which is outside us is an object. Thus a call to worship Allah is a call to worship an object. Idol worship is worship of objects.

Response: The definition of idol worship is not to worship an object, but to worship an image or representation of God. So even if you call Allah an object, it is still not idol worship, since Muslims still worship Allah (God) directly, and not a representation of Allah.

 

[Willamena]

Worship occurs when there is a separation between the worshiper and the worshiped. When the separation has been transcended you would be in a non-dual state.

That separation is a grammatical convention that necessitates a subject and an object for each verb-form. The verb only conventionally requires it. There is worship apart from grammar.

 

[K.Venugopal]

That separation is a grammatical convention that necessitates a subject and an object for each verb-form. The verb only conventionally requires it. There is worship apart from grammar.

Subject-Object usage is not only in grammar. It is also used in philosophy. No just Hindu mind you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_(philosophy)

https://www.marxists.org/glossary/terms/o/b.htm

Subject (philosophy)

Nondualism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[K.Venugopal]

There is no non-dualistic existence.

Determining the nature of existence has been the engagement of the best of minds since man started walking on earth. Existence has been sought to be understood at many levels and in many ways. Non-duality is one such understanding. One understanding does not invalidate other understandings but would only be an invitation to traverse that particular path by those willing. As ancient wisdom has it - all rivers lead to the ocean.

Physical reality is independent of our perception/awareness/consciousness of it.

Nothing is dependent on anything but by its own inherent reality. Non-duality propounds that that which is inherent in everything is nothing other than life. The life force being the same in everything (including apparently “inert” things) – the influence is really from within. According to Advaita (non-duality) only life exists – the inside/outside conundrum is only apparent or maya.

Hindus believe maya is the illusory physical universe which our rational minds are not capable of understanding or the cause of our faulty understanding of reality. But to escape physical reality in a transcendental form is only possible with death or non existence because consciousness begins with existence. I think...therefore I am.

I disagree because there is no such thing as death or non-existence (per se). What is simply a change of form is mistaken for these. In Hindu parlance the word Maya is used to point out that death and non-existence do not really occur. Consciousness and existence are not different. I am...therefore I think.

I wish to point out that you may refute my contentions but that would not make either of us right or wrong. We have only taken different paths to understand and live life. Life affords innumerable expressions.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Response: The definition of idol worship is not to worship an object, but to worship an image or representation of God. So even if you call Allah an object, it is still not idol worship, since Muslims still worship Allah (God) directly, and not a representation of Allah.

Allah may not be an object. But in worshiping Him you have to objectify Him because He is outside you and not what you are.