Isn’t Islam an idol worshiping religion?

[K.Venugopal]

That's an interesting way of looking at it. I see as worship occurring when a person is giving thanks, praise, or devotion to something that they value; whether or not things are perceived as "separated" is not at all relevant to me. So by your understanding, whenever someone is worshiping something that is "separate" this is somehow idolatry? If so, I can't say I agree with this at all, but I think I've learned something of your perspectives at least. XD

I understand the word “idolatry” is used pejoratively in the West. I would simply say idol worship. In India where the majority are Hindus and the majority of Hindus worship idols idol worship is accepted as a valid way of worship. I say Muslims’ worship of Allah is in effect worship of an idol (even if they don’t consider Allah as an idol) because no one can worship unless they objectify. The very naming of Him as Allah is part of that objectification. It is only in silence that all objectifying and hence all worship drops. Incidentally in whatever way Muslims perceive Allah – it is in similar fashion that idol worshipers perceive their deity.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Islam says Allah is outside us. That which is outside us is an object. Thus a call to worship Allah is a call to worship an object. Idol worship is worship of objects.

I searched my previous threads and I noticed I had started a thread on the same subject some years back. Might be of interest to those participating in the present thread.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...9502-isnt-islam-idol-worshiping-religion.html

 

[Harikrish]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harikrish
There is no non-dualistic existence

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Venugopal wrote: Determining the nature of existence has been the engagement of the best of minds since man started walking on earth. Existence has been sought to be understood at many levels and in many ways. Non-duality is one such understanding. One understanding does not invalidate other understandings but would only be an invitation to traverse that particular path by those willing. As ancient wisdom has it - all rivers lead to the ocean.

Non-duality is a intellectual concept that attempts to bridge the absolute with the relative. It presents the oneness and unity of reality, rather that the difference between reality and perception of the observed. But it is impossible to attain this non dualism because the observer changes the nature of the observed. ... It short, reality as we know it happens only in the moment, when we experience/observe it – outside our perception reality has endless possibilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harikrish
Physical reality is independent of our perception/awareness/consciousness of it.

Venue opal wrote: I disagree. Nothing is dependent on anything but by its own inherent reality. Non-duality propounds that that which is inherent in everything is nothing other than life. The life force being the same in everything (including apparently “inert” things) – the influence is really from within. According to Advaita (non-duality) only life exists – the inside/outside conundrum is only apparent or maya.

Non-duality does not address the problem of the one and the many. It’s basically how everything in the universe has a connection and relation with one or many things. The problem of finding the one thing that lies behind all things in the universe is called the problem of the one and the many. The problem, of course, is figuring out what that one, unifying idea is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harikrish
Hindus believe maya is the illusory physical universe which our rational minds are not capable of understanding or the cause of our faulty understanding of reality. But to escape physical reality in a transcendental form is only possible with death or non existence because consciousness begins with existence. I think...therefore I am.

Venue opal wrote: I disagree because there is no such thing as death or non-existence (per se). What is simply a change of form is mistaken for these. In Hindu parlance the word Maya is used to point out that death and non-existence do not really occur. Consciousness and existence are not different. I am...therefore I think.

I wish to point out that you may refute my contentions but that would not make either of us right or wrong. We have only taken different paths to understand and live life. Life affords innumerable expressions.

Maya is often translated as "illusion", since our minds construct a subjective experience, which we are in peril of interpreting as reality. Māyā is the principal deity that manifests, perpetuates, and governs the illusion and dream of duality in the phenomenal Universe.

But this an ideal state to attain in order to experience non-duality. Even science has not evidenced this state is possible.

The goal of enlightenment is to understand this—more precisely, to experience this: to see that the distinction between the self and the Universe is a false dichotomy. The distinction between consciousness and physical matter, between mind and body (refer bodymind), is the result of an unenlightened perspective.

 

[paarsurrey]

Isn't Islam an idol worshiping religion?

Quran/Islam/Muhammad are against idol worshipping, it would be associating partners with G-d that is not liked by Quran/Islam/Muhammad:

The Holy Quran : Chapter 4: Al-Nisa'

[4:37] And worship Allah and associate naught with Him, and show kindness to parents, and to kindred, and orphans, and the needy, and to the neighbour that is a kinsman and the neighbour that is a stranger, and the companion by your side, and the wayfarer, and those whom your right hands possess. Surely, Allah loves not the proud and the boastful,

The Holy Quran Arabic text with Translation in English text and Search Engine - Al Islam Online

Regards

 

[K.Venugopal]

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Non-duality is a intellectual concept that attempts to bridge the absolute with the relative. It presents the oneness and unity of reality, rather that the difference between reality and perception of the observed. But it is impossible to attain this non dualism because the observer changes the nature of the observed. ... It short, reality as we know it happens only in the moment, when we experience/observe it – outside our perception reality has endless possibilities.




Non-duality does not address the problem of the one and the many. It’s basically how everything in the universe has a connection and relation with one or many things. The problem of finding the one thing that lies behind all things in the universe is called the problem of the one and the many. The problem, of course, is figuring out what that one, unifying idea is.





Maya is often translated as "illusion", since our minds construct a subjective experience, which we are in peril of interpreting as reality. Māyā is the principal deity that manifests, perpetuates, and governs the illusion and dream of duality in the phenomenal Universe.

But this an ideal state to attain in order to experience non-duality. Even science has not evidenced this state is possible.

The goal of enlightenment is to understand this—more precisely, to experience this: to see that the distinction between the self and the Universe is a false dichotomy. The distinction between consciousness and physical matter, between mind and body (refer bodymind), is the result of an unenlightened perspective.

I agree with all that you have said and I admire the way you have put it all in precise language. It is very educative. Looking at non-duality and its validity as a scientific consideration of the ultimate truth has to be pursued because being scientific is about discovering the truth about man and matters.

I wish to add that non-dualism has its real value in our day-to-day living because it addresses nothing less than the problem of man’s suffering. All suffering arises from the mind and suffering is inevitable if the mind is divided into the dichotomy of like and dislike. Acceptance of all polarities of experience alone would free the mind and a free mind is freedom from suffering.

 

[Vinayaka]

I understand the word “idolatry” is used pejoratively in the West. I would simply say idol worship. In India where the majority are Hindus and the majority of Hindus worship idols idol worship is accepted as a valid way of worship.

Hindus don't worship idols. You've been hoodwinked by western critics. Listen to the Hindus, not outsiders. Worshiping an object would make no sense.

It is either representative of something bigger, or it's an energy tool, just as copper carries electricity. Electricity isn't the copper.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Quran/Islam/Muhammad are against idol worshipping, it would be associating partners with G-d that is not liked by Quran/Islam/Muhammad:

Islam may be against idol worship but has the Quran taught how to avoid idol worship? The only way to avoid idol worship is to turn within. But Islam says Allah is outside just like idols and not within.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Hindus don't worship idols. You've been hoodwinked by western critics. Listen to the Hindus, not outsiders. Worshiping an object would make no sense.

It is either representative of something bigger, or it's an energy tool, just as copper carries electricity. Electricity isn't the copper.

Yes. You are absolutely right and you have put it pithily. Idols are a means to the end.

 

[Smart_Guy]

It is believed in Islam that the intention is what matters. Sometimes you intend something but do an act that seems questionable. It is like directing our prayer towards the Kaaba, but the intention we follow is to worship God.

 

[Vinayaka]

Idols are a means to the end.

Again, they are not idols. They are murthies.

 

[K.Venugopal]

It is believed in Islam that the intention is what matters. Sometimes you intend something but do an act that seems questionable. It is like directing our prayer towards the Kaaba, but the intention we follow is to worship God.

That is OK. But they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Again, they are not idols. They are murthies.

That's quibbling. (An Imam being interviewed on BBC said "We don't worship God we worship Allah.")

 

[Al-Fatihah]

Allah may not be an object. But in worshiping Him you have to objectify Him because He is outside you and not what you are.

Response: None of which is a problem in Islam.

 

[Harikrish]

Islam like Judaism and Christianity have idolized God. The God of Islam is formless and is called by 99 names or attributes by the prophet. God is given every attribute that is desirable by the prophet. God is put on a pedestal and worshipped and that makes Islam an idol worshipping religion.

The prophet Mohammad is not the first one to claim God spoke to him through an angel (Gabriel). But we know today, those voices in the head are medical symptoms of delusions and hallucinations. There are other factors that accompany or can trigger these conditions.
Brain research have connected such mental disorders with spirituality and religious experiences. For example we know Mohammad suffered from epileptic seizures which is one of the associated triggers.

Self- transcendence, or a sense of the otherworldly, is the opposite of being self-focused and is a convenient definition of spirituality and/or religious sensibility used by researchers. This perception is generated by many experiences in addition to religion, including brain trauma, drug states, and epileptic seizures.

Here is how the prophet describes God in the Quran.

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only

Allah the Eternal, Absolute

He begets not nor was He begotten

And there is none comparable to Him. (The Quran 112:1-4)

What can we learn about God from the prophet with the above description? Nothing!!!! Even Santa Claus would fit that description.

He is Santa, the one and only.
Santa the eternal, absolute
He begets not nor was he begotten
And there is none comparable to him

He brings joy to all who hear his name.
With his reindeers and sleigh he crosses the skies bearing gifts for all who delight in him
Verily I say his coming is anticipated and celebrated even by little children who know the great Santa by name.

 

[Sabour]

Islam like Judaism and Christianity have idolized God. The God of Islam is formless and is called by 99 names or attributes by the prophet. God is given every attribute that is desirable by the prophet. God is put on a pedestal and worshipped and that makes Islam an idol worshipping religion.

The prophet Mohammad is not the first one to claim God spoke to him through an angel (Gabriel). But we know today, those voices in the head are medical symptoms of delusions and hallucinations. There are other factors that accompany or can trigger these conditions.
Brain research have connected such mental disorders with spirituality and religious experiences. For example we know Mohammad suffered from epileptic seizures which is one of the associated triggers.



Here is how the prophet describes God in the Quran.



What can we learn about God from the prophet with the above description? Nothing!!!! Even Santa Claus would fit that description.

He is Santa, the one and only.
Santa the eternal, absolute
He begets not nor was he begotten
And there is none comparable to him

He brings joy to all who hear his name.
With his reindeers and sleigh he crosses the skies bearing gifts for all who delight in him
Verily I say his coming is anticipated and celebrated even by little children who know the great Santa by name.

How about you read the Quraan and find out yourself who is Allah instead of making fun of a xhapter you didn't understand because you lacked necessary background.


The 99 attributes of Allah you mentioned, scholars can spend hours explaining only one of those attributes or names.

 

[Sees]

Islam like Judaism and Christianity have idolized God. The God of Islam is formless and is called by 99 names or attributes by the prophet. God is given every attribute that is desirable by the prophet. God is put on a pedestal and worshipped and that makes Islam an idol worshipping religion.

The prophet Mohammad is not the first one to claim God spoke to him through an angel (Gabriel). But we know today, those voices in the head are medical symptoms of delusions and hallucinations. There are other factors that accompany or can trigger these conditions.
Brain research have connected such mental disorders with spirituality and religious experiences. For example we know Mohammad suffered from epileptic seizures which is one of the associated triggers.



Here is how the prophet describes God in the Quran.



What can we learn about God from the prophet with the above description? Nothing!!!! Even Santa Claus would fit that description.

He is Santa, the one and only.
Santa the eternal, absolute
He begets not nor was he begotten
And there is none comparable to him

He brings joy to all who hear his name.
With his reindeers and sleigh he crosses the skies bearing gifts for all who delight in him
Verily I say his coming is anticipated and celebrated even by little children who know the great Santa by name.

Please don't mock Santa or disrespect through association.

 

[Harikrish]

Please don't mock Santa or disrespect through association.

My apology. I was just trying to share Santa with all those Muslim children who are forced to recite verses from the Quran which equally apply to Santa, but sadly may never enjoy the benefits of Santa.

 

[Sabour]

My apology. I was just trying to share Santa with all those Muslim children who are forced to recite verses from the Quran which equally apply to Santa, but sadly may never enjoy the benefits of Santa.

At least those Children will be raised and taught not to mock others. The least one of them will have more values than you.

 

[Desert Snake]

That's quibbling. (An Imam being interviewed on BBC said "We don't worship God we worship Allah.")

Neither G-d nor Allah according to that statement are 'idols'. They are outside of the 'object' category. I just think you're really using some definition acrobatics here, and have to say, you may have backtracked earlier as well, because that would make us 'objects' as well, hence idol worship according to your definitions.

 

[Nada]

Neither G-d nor Allah according to that statement are 'idols'. They are outside of the 'object' category. I just think you're really using some definition acrobatics here, and have to say, you may have backtracked earlier as well, because that would make us 'objects' as well, hence idol worship according to your definitions.

Allah literally means God.