Isn't it better to be atheists?

[joe1776]

But if no religion has significantly increased, is it not reasonable to predict that atheism has also increased?

Sure. But, in the USA, the Pew surveys show that atheism increased by only a small percentage while the biggest increase was from a catch-all group that Pew labeled as "spiritual-but-not-religious."

In other words, Americans are rejecting religion but the trend doesn't mean that atheism will be their default.

Without a breakdown, we don't know how the trend is playing out in other countries.

 

[Altfish]

Sure. But, in the USA, the Pew surveys show that atheism increased by only a small percentage while the biggest increase was from a catch-all group that Pew labeled as "spiritual-but-not-religious."

In other words, Americans are rejecting religion but the trend doesn't mean that atheism will be their default.

Without a breakdown, we don't know how the trend is playing out in other countries.

I never said that atheism will be the default position of non-believers; all I said was that if the number of non-believers increases, then it is highly likely that the number of atheists will also rise, albeit by a smaller number

 

[joe1776]

if an atheist wants to kill, he will kill. if a christian wants to kill, he will commit a crime.

Atheists are human. We humans have consciences. An atheist isn't going to kill someone unless it's in self-defense because that's the way we are guided by conscience.

Our laws conform to conscience. A killing in self-defense is justified. It's not murder. Intentional killings of innocent people are immoral and therefore crimes.

 

[joe1776]

I never said that atheism will be the default position of non-believers; all I said was that if the number of non-believers increases, then it is highly likely that the number of atheists will also rise, albeit by a smaller number

OK, I'm wrong.

 

[sealchan]

You seem to be reading much into what I didn´t say. I simply stated that when the world and all itś scientists believed in a steady state universe, Christians and Jews believed in a created universe, coming into existence in an instant, and had for thousands of years. . Simple fact, regardless of your attempts to explain it away. Methinks you protesteth way too much.

I may have over responded to what you said but not to what such words as you have spoken may mean to many people. Yes, the steady state theory was a thing in science...until it wasn't within the last one hundred years. But the steady state theory was proposed, perhaps, in the same spirit that the original authors of the Genesis creation account proposed their implied cosmology...if it isn't apparent, don't add it. All creation myths deal with the start of the Universe by the hand of a divine being...so the Genesis creation myth is par for the course in its time and genre. Scientists, not having any evidence one way or the other, came up with another theory, steady state (if it isn't changing why say it did?)...until they found evidence otherwise.

The comparison between the scientific theory and the Genesis creation story is specious, and in today's sometimes credulous world, I find it important to point out the deep epistemological flaw of such comparisons. It rankles especially because I am a Christian I suppose.

If any of this misses the mark as far as you are concerned, my apologies.

 

[syo]

Atheists are human. We humans have consciences. An atheist isn't going to kill someone unless it's in self-defense because that's the way we are guided by conscience.

Our laws conform to conscience. A killing in self-defense is justified. It's not murder. Intentional killings of innocent people are immoral and therefore crimes.

i disagree. an atheist can kill and call it just.

 

[Curious George]

i disagree. an atheist can kill and call it just.

People of all persuasions have done just that; this condition is not limited to atheists.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You will always find what you want to find.

"If you meet the Buddha on the path kill him!"

I was told of this saying quite some time ago, and it is credited to Buddha himself.

I have always found it compelling, and very interesting. And not a little Zen (as I understand the concept in my limited way).

The number and depth of concepts, as expressed in this short phrase always amazes me, every time I think about it.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I disagree. Religion gives answers, atheism has no answers.

But if the "answers" are entirely fantasy? Or myth? And have little or no basis in reality?

I'd rather have no hope, than false hope. I'd rather face the hard truth than a comforting lie.

 

[syo]

But if the "answers" are entirely fantasy? Or myth? And have little or no basis in reality?

I'd rather have no hope, than false hope. I'd rather face the hard truth than a comforting lie.

that's the problem of modern society. they label atheism as true and religion as fake. atheism is false and fake, not religion.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I do not think in terms of better or worse, I think in terms of what is. So if there is a God then it is better to be a believer but if there is no God then it is better to be an atheist because it would be silly to believe in and worship a nonexistent Being...

Since we cannot prove that God exists, it is just a matter of what people choose to believe or disbelieve. Frankly, I think it is kind of risky to discount the idea that there is a God because if there is a God then there could be repercussions for not believing in that God, especially after we die. So I think it is smart for atheists to keep looking for evidence that God exists.

If there is no God and we believed there was a God the worst that can happen is that we die and there is nothing... We might have spent or lives worshiping and serving a nonexistent God, but if we lived a good life doing it we have really lost nothing except that we sacrificed our own personal desires, other fun things we could have been doing.

I have been thinking about this lately, since I have sacrificed all my time for God and I see no end in sight. What is it was all for nothing? Then I wake up and realize that is really not possible because of course there is a God and an afterlife. I sometimes just wish there wasn't so I could go back to having fun...

What you have re-created here, is another version of Paschal's Wager. The problem is, that you cannot possibly know which sort of god it is.

What if the god is super-rational? And is disdainful of people who believe "just in case".

Moreover, if such a god accepts people who believe as a kind of dodge, or escape clause? That means such a god is kind of an a-hole, really. Something of a narcissistic egomaniac. Or worse-- really, really stupid to be fooled so easily, by mere human's clever scheming.

If the god of the universe is at all rational? And since you already agree there is no real proof of any gods? Then?

Why would such a rational being punish people for being rational, and not believing? For following the evidence to it's logical conclusion (highly doubtful there are any gods). That is rather a childish move on god's part--- something I'd expect from a toddler, but not an adult.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

if an atheist wants to kill, he will kill. if a christian wants to kill, he will commit a crime.

Killing is not automatically a crime, in most societies. If you are in the military, for example? You are fully expected to kill on command, regardless of your belief or lack thereof.

Furthermore, self defense-- to the point of killing the attacker, is also seen as not a crime in most places.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

... atheism is false and fake, not religion.

You are going to have to prove your statement, above.

Best of luck with that-- but here is a simple experiment you can do, and it will instantly prove atheism is false as you claim, all over the world.

Simply have your deity show up, and speak to the whole world at once.

Easy enough for an Omni-Max being, right?

Hmmmmm.... in all the history of the planet, nobody's "god" has managed that simple feat.... even Jesus only spoke as a mere human, and not to everyone at once.

 

[syo]

You are going to have to prove your statement, above.

Best of luck with that-- but here is a simple experiment you can do, and it will instantly prove atheism is false as you claim, all over the world.

Simply have your deity show up, and speak to the whole world at once.

Easy enough for an Omni-Max being, right?

Hmmmmm.... in all the history of the planet, nobody's "god" has managed that simple feat.... even Jesus only spoke as a mere human, and not to everyone at once.

he already done that in the beginning of time.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

If an atheist believes his own sense of morality allows him to kill for what his own morality says killing is warranted, he will do so. If a Christian kills under circumstances where he has been told it is totally unwarranted, he has committed murder, a grievous sin against man and God.

Conversely, an atheist will never kill because some ancient book from the Bronze Age commands him to.

Whereas you cannot make the same claim, with regards to a theist -- if the theist believes his ancient book has commanded him to kill a particular group of humans? He will likely kill them, and believe he was fully justified in so doing.

History is full of such events, wherein a group was persecuted and killed by groups of theists.

And not ancient history-- even in the modern age, we see plenty of examples of people being killed, because a group of theists believe their holy books command them to kill.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

No, I think you are wrong in your assessment. A Christian has a very clearly defined and focused instruction when killing another is moral. ONLY when one is defending ones self, or another from imminent and direct physical attack. God doesn't have " a sense of morality " He is morality, and he defines it for man. Our morality doesn't slide around and allow us to make excuses., outside if what is moral as defined is immoral, period.

Yet, under christianity? Large numbers of people were persecuted or killed, because christians believed their bible commanded them to kill them.

Even to modern times, we have examples of this behavior.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

he already done that in the beginning of time.

Prove it. I'll wait-- but I won't be holding my breath.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

i disagree. an atheist can kill and call it just.

So can a theist-- what's worse-- the theist can try to "justify" his killing, by pointing to his "holey" book.

 

[syo]

Prove it. I'll wait-- but I won't be holding my breath.

aum

 

[syo]

So can a theist-- what's worse-- the theist can try to "justify" his killing, by pointing to his "holey" book.

a ''holey'' book justifies the killing. a ''holy'' not.