Isn't opposing the Confederate flag basic decency?

[gsa]

Today, South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley called for the Confederate flag to be removed from the state capitol grounds. As did South Carolina senator Lindsey Graham. As Graham said:

Lindsey Graham on Monday joined his home state’s two other top elected officials in calling for the Confederate battle flag’s removal from the Capitol grounds, just a few days after the senior South Carolina senator said that while it was time for South Carolinians to consider taking down the flag, it marked a “part of who we are.”

Graham, a 2016 presidential candidate, told CNN on Friday said that “the flag represents to some people, a civil war, and that was the symbol of one side. To others, it’s a racist symbol and it’s been used by people in a racist way.”

But the Confederacy was an openly racist, slave-supporting, seditious movement. Is this really a difficult question? Can one imagine if some Germans proudly displayed the Nazi Swastika, defending it on the grounds of tradition and heritage?

To me the question of the Confederate flag is easy: Let the racists wave it proudly on their own time and on their own dime. It is deeply immoral to even offer the slightest defense of that symbol, and what it represents, as political representative who has taken an oath to defend the US constitution, which repudiates it.

 

[Revoltingest]

The flag means different things to different people.
Personally, I don't fly it.
But then, I don't even fly the Americastanian or Michiganistanian flags either.

 

[gsa]

The flag means different things to different people.
Personally, I don't fly it.
But then, I don't even fly the Americastanian or Michiganistanian flags either.

I don't fly any flags. But the question is, would you ever even consider flying the Confederate flag?

I mean, flags are meant to symbolize something, usually fundamental values that a polity holds dear. And if that is the case, why would anyone ever fly the Confederate flag or defend it, for that matter? Some societies have their problems, to be sure, but not all of them have racism and intolerance woven into their DNA. It sees to be no different than flying an ISIS flag, truth be told; and just as seditious, if you are the patriotic sort, to fly the South's stars and bars.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't fly any flags. But the question is, would you ever even consider flying the Confederate flag?

Never

I mean, flags are meant to symbolize something, usually fundamental values that a polity holds dear. And if that is the case, why would anyone ever fly the Confederate flag or defend it, for that matter? Some societies have their problems, to be sure, but not all of them have racism and intolerance woven into their DNA. It sees to be no different than flying an ISIS flag, truth be told; and just as seditious, if you are the patriotic sort, to fly the South's stars and bars.

To many it means pride in the south & independence (not slavery).

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I voted no. But I used to have Nazi flags in my room and wear Fascist pins to school. So I'm not exactly politically correct.

 

[gsa]

To many it means pride in the south & independence (not slavery).

Honestly, I cannot see the distinction. They didn't take arms over some abstract form of independence, but to preserve slavery.

 

[Revoltingest]

Honestly, I cannot see the distinction. They didn't take arms over some abstract form of independence, but to preserve slavery.

Tis true that some people cannot separate the flag from slavery.
This is why there's so much controversy about flying it.

 

[Nakosis]

I wouldn't fly it. I don't identify with being from the south. I don't think the government should be flying it though.

A couple of folks I knew didn't fly the flag but had it on their license plate, decals, belt buckle, etc...
I think to them it meant the glory of the old south. I suspect then didn't really know what the glory of the old south actually was, just some romantic notion of being a rebel.

 

[gsa]

Tis true that some people cannot separate the flag from slavery.
This is why there's so much controversy about flying it.

What is the actual argument that separates the flag from slavery, and also from the Confederacy's open support of racial supremacism?

This is not simply a matter of perception to me. The symbols of the Confederacy represented overt, open, unapologetic racism. It was a short lived regime that lived and died defending racism and a racist economy. Honestly, I can't see how any rational person could distinguish the two, given the actual history involved.

 

[Marisa]

I don't do flags or fealty oaths, but the best thing I've heard yet on this issue was on The Nightly Show: if it's part of your past why not leave it there?

 

[Marisa]

Never
To many it means pride in the south & independence (not slavery).

Having been born and raised in the south and being unable to speak without everyone knowing that, I can honestly say I don't understand being proud of where you were born as if you had some choice in the matter. Slavery was one of the darkest periods of American history, and those of us with a twang stood on the wrong side of that history for far too long. I don't see much to proud of myself.

 

[Revoltingest]

What is the actual argument that separates the flag from slavery, and also from the Confederacy's open support of racial supremacism?

There is no argument about it.
People who see it as representing something other than slavery simply see it that way.
And of course, those who see it as about slavery see it that way.
Tis not for me to justify one or the other.
To me it's just someone else's anachronism.

This is not simply a matter of perception to me. The symbols of the Confederacy represented overt, open, unapologetic racism. It was a short lived regime that lived and died defending racism and a racist economy. Honestly, I can't see how any rational person could distinguish the two, given the actual history involved.

The south was many things....not just slavery.
Everyone sees what they see.

 

[Revoltingest]

Having been born and raised in the south and being unable to speak without everyone knowing that, I can honestly say I don't understand being proud of where you were born as if you had some choice in the matter. Slavery was one of the darkest periods of American history, and those of us with a twang stood on the wrong side of that history for far too long. I don't see much to proud of myself.

Clearly, not all southerners like the Stars & Bars (or other versions).

 

[gsa]

The south was many things....not just slavery.
Everyone sees what they see.

Sure, the South was many things, including but not limited to slavery. But this isn't about the South, this is about the brief life of the Confederacy. And the reasons for the Confederacy are much more limited than the South as a cultural, historical and social creature.

I don't think it is (just) a matter of people seeing what they see; some people have better eyesight than others.

 

[Skwim]

Never
To many it means pride in the south & independence (not slavery).

Considering that there's nothing to be especially proud of in the South and it no longer has any independence, these asinine notions are no doubt indicative of those that hold them.

 

[Marisa]

Clearly, not all southerners like the Stars & Bars (or other versions).

I've lived here long enough to know that I'm not likely to willingly associate with anyone who flies that flag.

 

[jeager106]

some critters still harp the Civil War was fought over States Rights.
And it was. The States rights to persist is enslaving other humans.
The "glory of the old South ended when the SLAVE OWNING states
formed it's own government, printed it's own worthless currency, and started a war
that claimed over 600,000 American lives, and no one will know how many men
on both sides were horribly crippled no longer able to earn a living.
I understand the Rebel flag, the Stars and Bars would be natural at a Civil War
Confederate monument, or part of a museum display but not on an AMERICAN
FEDERAL building.
Flying the Rebel's flag today is an insult to ALL people of conscious, color, race, hasn't
nor should have anything to do with it.
That flag has the same evil meaning as the Nazi flag.
The Confederate States lost the war, lost slavery, the war absolutely wrecked the South.
The Confederate Government was STUPID to even think they could ever beat the North
even though the north sure as heck tried to loose with their worse Generals screwing
up battle after battle.
The Stars and Bars IS a symbol of slavery and exploitation of other humans just as the Nazi
flag represents the evil that started another world war and executed six million Jews.
Many people never realize that war is responsible for up to eighty MILLION deaths.

 

[Revoltingest]

Considering that there's nothing to be especially proud of in the South and it no longer has any independence, these asinine notions are no doubt indicative of those that hold them.

Perhaps having been badly beaten in the Civil War (many deaths & much destruction) & endured northern control inspired this particular symbol of rebellion.
Do you believe that your interpretation of this symbol is the singular inerrant one?

 

[Revoltingest]

I've lived here long enough to know that I'm not likely to willingly associate with anyone who flies that flag.

I don't believe that I have any friends who fly it either.
Does that boost my stock?

 

[gsa]

Perhaps having been badly beaten in the Civil War (many deaths & much destruction) & endured northern control inspired this particular symbol of rebellion.
Do you believe that your interpretation of this symbol is the singular inerrant one?

If you substitute the South for Rhodesia, South Africa or Nazi Germany in this example, does your interpretation change at all? Or rather, your willingness to entertain alternative history? Because I am far more sympathetic to the Afrikaners than I am to the partisans of the Confederates, and I still think that they were racist ****s.