Isn't opposing the Confederate flag basic decency?

[Skwim]

Perhaps having been badly beaten in the Civil War (many deaths & much destruction) & endured northern control inspired this particular symbol of rebellion.

The flag was made before the civil war began, so the many deaths & much destruction had nothing to do with inspiring it.

Do you believe that your interpretation of this symbol is the singular inerrant one?

Not quite understanding you. My comment was only in regard to those who revere it.

 

[Marisa]

I don't believe that I have any friends who fly it either.
Does that boost my stock?

You need not worry about your stock with me. You're good peeps, despite being a bit "off" politically.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you substitute the South for Rhodesia, South Africa or Nazi Germany in this example, does your interpretation change at all?

Those are different places with different histories.
But even the swastika doesn't have the singular meaning which you might attribute to it.
Swastika - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or rather, your willingness to entertain alternative history?

Now, now.....let's not go off the deep end here with straw men.
I'm not proposing alternative history....just alternative views on a flag.

Because I am far more sympathetic to the Afrikaners than I am to the partisans of the Confederates, and I still think that they were racist ****s.

I don't see the point behind these relative sympathies.

 

[Revoltingest]

You need not worry about your stock with me. You're good peeps, despite being a bit "off" politically.

I like your using that qualifier (politically).

 

[gsa]

Those are different places with different histories.
But even the swastika doesn't have the singular meaning which you might attribute to it.
Swastika - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now, now.....let's not go off the deep end here with straw men.
I'm not proposing alternative history....just alternative views on a flag.

I don't see the point behind these relative sympathies.

I am not getting dragged down in this, but I will make my points:

1. I don't care that the swastika has a broader meaning. The Nazi swastika has a singular one.

2. These are different places with different histories, but they all have a recurrent and powerful theme of racial apartheid, racial separatism and white supremacy. That cannot be denied.

3. Relative sympathies reflect their relative positions. The Afrikaners had nowhere else to go and were genuinely terrified of being "decolonized." Hard to square that with Southern sensibilities, in explaining their far more vicious actions.

I will not belabor the point.

 

[Revoltingest]

The flag was made before the civil war began, so the many deaths & much destruction had nothing to do with inspiring it.

You're arguing that people shouldn't see a symbol in the way they see it.
When it was created is unlikely to drive the interpretation of those living over 150 years later.

Not quite understanding you. My comment was only in regard to those who revere it.

Still, I'm curious if you believe that what the flag represents to you is the only possible interpretation.

Should the Americastanian flag (stars & stripes) be banned because to some it represents oppression of Amerindians, the conquering of Hawaii, the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Iran, the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima, the firebombing of Dresden, etc, etc, etc?
Or is it a grand old flag because other people see liberty, accomplishment & beauty?

 

[Revoltingest]

I am not getting dragged down in this, but I will make my points:

1. I don't care that the swastika has a broader meaning. The Nazi swastika has a singular one.

2. These are different places with different histories, but they all have a recurrent and powerful theme of racial apartheid, racial separatism and white supremacy. That cannot be denied.

3. Relative sympathies reflect their relative positions. The Afrikaners had nowhere else to go and were genuinely terrified of being "decolonized." Hard to square that with Southern sensibilities, in explaining their far more vicious actions.

I will not belabor the point.

Good....we can agree to disagree about whether some southerners see southern pride instead of slavery.

 

[columbus]

formed it's own government, printed it's own worthless currency, and started a war
that claimed over 600,000 American lives, and no one will know how many men
on both sides were horribly crippled no longer able to earn a living.

Wait a minute.
Who started the Civil War?
I realise that the northerners won, and therefore wrote the history books.
But the fact remains that they started the war by invading.
Tom

 

[Twilight Hue]

Today, South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley called for the Confederate flag to be removed from the state capitol grounds. As did South Carolina senator Lindsey Graham. As Graham said:

Lindsey Graham on Monday joined his home state’s two other top elected officials in calling for the Confederate battle flag’s removal from the Capitol grounds, just a few days after the senior South Carolina senator said that while it was time for South Carolinians to consider taking down the flag, it marked a “part of who we are.”

Graham, a 2016 presidential candidate, told CNN on Friday said that “the flag represents to some people, a civil war, and that was the symbol of one side. To others, it’s a racist symbol and it’s been used by people in a racist way.”

But the Confederacy was an openly racist, slave-supporting, seditious movement. Is this really a difficult question? Can one imagine if some Germans proudly displayed the Nazi Swastika, defending it on the grounds of tradition and heritage?

To me the question of the Confederate flag is easy: Let the racists wave it proudly on their own time and on their own dime. It is deeply immoral to even offer the slightest defense of that symbol, and what it represents, as political representative who has taken an oath to defend the US constitution, which repudiates it.

Took the Nazi analogy right out of my head.
I was thinking that exact same thing.

 

[gsa]

Wait a minute.
Who started the Civil War?
I realise that the northerners won, and therefore wrote the history books.
But the fact remains that they started the war by invading.
Tom

We did? I seem to recall an attack on Fort Sumter.

Even if we attacked completely unprovoked, it would have been worth it to liberate the people they held in slavery. Not the reason it was done, to be sure, but a sufficient justification for it.

 

[columbus]

[QUOTE="gsa, post: 4339684, member: We did? I seem to recall an attack on Fort Sumter.[/QUOTE]

The war was already under way. The northerners wrote the history books. But keep in mind, The Declaration of Independence was written by a slave owning Southern gentleman. You can bet that the southerners hadn't. They liked to quote that "When in the course of human events...." part.
The north had no moral or legal right to stop the secession than the Founding Fathers had to secede from Britain. They just did it. And they won so they wrote the history books.
Tom

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Good....we can agree to disagree about whether some southerners see southern pride instead of slavery.

But even if they do, is it a matter of them not caring what that flag means to others?

 

[Revoltingest]

But even if they do, is it a matter of them not caring what that flag means to others?

This is why I favor dumping the Confederate flag.
Even if they have noble intentions, it gots ta go.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

This is why I favor dumping the Confederate flag.
Even if they have noble intentions, it gots ta go.

*nods*
Makes sense to me.

 

[Skwim]

You're arguing that people shouldn't see a symbol in the way they see it.

Hardly.

Still, I'm curious if you believe that what the flag represents to you is the only possible interpretation.

Absolutely. At least the only interpretation worth considerating.

Should the Americastanian flag (stars & stripes) be banned because to some it represents oppression of Amerindians, the conquering of Hawaii, the overthrow of a democratically elected government in Iran, the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima, the firebombing of Dresden, etc, etc, etc?

Of course not because these things are part and parcel of Americana. The Confederacy, having been roundly beaten into the ground, is a nonentity unworthy of recognition. People who cling to the confederate flag only do so because it's the only identity their ego can muster. Well that, and a lot of genetic red-neck ancestry.

Or is it a grand old flag because other people see liberty, accomplishment & beauty?

Well, there's that too. America is sort of like the character of god. It has its good sides and its bad sides, and it's more comfortable and reassuring to focus on the good and keep the bad tucked away in the back of the brain.

 

[Revoltingest]

Hardly.

Absolutely. At least the only interpretation worth considerating.

Of course not because these things are part and parcel of Americana. The Confederacy, having been roundly beaten into the ground, is a nonentity unworthy of recognition. People who cling to the confederate flag only do so because it's the only identity their ego can muster. Well that, and a lot of genetic red-neck ancestry.

Well, there's that too. America is sort of like the character of god. It has its good sides and its bad sides, and it's more comfortable and reassuring to focus on the good and keep the bad tucked away in the back of the brain.

You can see multiple meaning in one flag, but not the other, eh.
OK.

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't think the flag itself has anything troublesome. Whatever might be wrong with it is due to the associations and remembrances it brings.

So I guess I would be fine with it. Forgetting the past is not morally or ethically much better than remembering it, in any case.

Perhaps more significantly, I have noticed that there is a lot of regional pride in the USA. Repressing the flags would not be very helpful in that regard. The true problem runs much deeper.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

People display confederate flags here in rural Maine quite a bit. These are typically people who have never had any affiliation with the South aside from country music and redneck culture. Thus, it appears that here, the confederate flag is a symbol for folks who consider themselves part of a wider, conservative rural identity. It's too bad, because Maine (and New England in general) has its own rich, rural heritage separate from the South's, which was based on plantations and slavery.

 

[Brickjectivity]

I wouldn't want to ride in a car with a confederate flag on it, because I don't like making others uncomfortable or want to insult anyone or look like I'm insulting anyone. The union is the law, and states are no more. Let all the old insults and slights fade away.

 

[Revoltingest]

People display confederate flags here in rural Maine quite a bit. These are typically people who have never had any affiliation with the South aside from country music and redneck culture. Thus, it appears that here, the confederate flag is a symbol for folks who consider themselves part of a wider, conservative rural identity. It's too bad, because Maine (and New England in general) has its own rich, rural heritage separate from the South's, which was based on plantations and slavery.

The majority of southerners didn't own slaves (even if they aspired to).
Even northerners, eg, in Detroit MI, owned slaves. And Maine....it had
ambivalent feelings about slavery because of its shipping & cotton mill
industries. So was Maine really all that separate from the south?

An interesting thing about collecting antique machinery is that it relates to
things like slavery, child labor, war & women entering the workforce.
New England had a plentiful supply of water power for textile mills &
military materiel manufacture. It all affected machine design, & vice versa.