Isn't opposing the Confederate flag basic decency?

[Wirey]

I still want to know if this movie is apart of the gay agenda, what agenda is this thread/video apart of?

Aye, does this say "slavery"?
No....to me it says irresponsible driving & pollution...

And great sideburns.

 

[Revoltingest]

And great sideburns.

Really?
I never watched the show.
The only thing I know about it is the General Lee & something called "Daisy Dukes".

 

[Wirey]

The Confederate flag is generally viewed as a symbol of racism, much like the poor old swastika, which used to just be a shape. If you choose to display what is generally seen as a symbol of racism, fine, but I get to point out that your parents had the same last name before they entered puberty all I want, you inbred yokel. Gee, I guess it's a symbol of something else, too.

 

[leibowde84]

The Confederate flag is generally viewed as a symbol of racism, much like the poor old swastika, which used to just be a shape. If you choose to display what is generally seen as a symbol of racism, fine, but I get to point out that your parents had the same last name before they entered puberty all I want, you inbred yokel. Gee, I guess it's a symbol of something else, too.

Most of this country live in cities. I'm tired of red necks thinking that they somehow represent America. Not to mention they tried to secede.

 

[Revoltingest]

Most of this country live in cities. I'm tired of red necks thinking that they somehow represent America. Not to mention they tried to secede.

Perhaps they tire of city folk thinking they represent everyone?
Or ferriners telling'm what they think?
More likely they just represent themselves.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Even the General Lee? Dukes of Hazzard?

The Dukes of Hazard was too little too late. Its like a joke at a massacre. As a kid I watched it, and I liked it but didn't really understand at the time what it meant to black Americans to see that flag all over the place.

 

[Awoon]

Today, South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley called for the Confederate flag to be removed from the state capitol grounds. As did South Carolina senator Lindsey Graham. As Graham said:

Lindsey Graham on Monday joined his home state’s two other top elected officials in calling for the Confederate battle flag’s removal from the Capitol grounds, just a few days after the senior South Carolina senator said that while it was time for South Carolinians to consider taking down the flag, it marked a “part of who we are.”

Graham, a 2016 presidential candidate, told CNN on Friday said that “the flag represents to some people, a civil war, and that was the symbol of one side. To others, it’s a racist symbol and it’s been used by people in a racist way.”

But the Confederacy was an openly racist, slave-supporting, seditious movement. Is this really a difficult question? Can one imagine if some Germans proudly displayed the Nazi Swastika, defending it on the grounds of tradition and heritage?

To me the question of the Confederate flag is easy: Let the racists wave it proudly on their own time and on their own dime. It is deeply immoral to even offer the slightest defense of that symbol, and what it represents, as political representative who has taken an oath to defend the US constitution, which repudiates it.

The Confederate Flag is a LOSER SYMBOL. They are LOSERS who FLY IT.

 

[Riverwolf]

The Declaration of Independence claims the right of citizens to leave a state that they find oppressive. If its signatories had the moral right to rebel against Britain, why didn't the South have the moral right to rebel against the USA? So much for the "treason" claim.

Well, to be fair that's kind of a thing with treason in general. Go back far enough and I'd wager most currently-established governments were treasonous to a previous authority.

Can flags be tainted by association?

Unfortunately, yes.

Is the Stars and Stripes tainted by the ethnic cleansing and attempted genocide practiced against Native Americans?

For me, partially. It's also, in my mind, a symbol of imperialism-disguised-as-liberation. I'm not terribly partial to that flag, either. The one reason I'm more... grudgingly accepting of it is because I live in the country that flies it and can't leave, so I basically have to be if I want to continue living here.

It's most certainly NOT the Flag of Freedom. There is only one Freedom Flag, and no country flies it because no country can, and if any country does fly it, it will cease to be the Freedom Flag.

If people want to fly a flag associated with their region, as opposed to a State flag or the Union flag, why not? When England meet Scotland on the sports field, we wave the cross of St George, they that of St Andrew. The latter is official, the former not: so what?

Personally, if I lived in the South of the US I'd not be too enthusiastic about it -- Protestant Christianity and politicians somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan -- but if that's your thing, then celebrate it.

The South does have things worthy of being proud of, particularly in terms of culture. Off the top of my head, jazz and blues. That basically means that by extension, pretty much all of 20th century pop music (including rock) are ultimately rooted there. Thing is, those two aspects of our culture are rooted in the African-American population, so when people take pride in their Southern heritage, I would ask whether this aspect is included in that pride.

I make a distinction between "The South" and "The Confederacy". The former is a region of the US marked by certain cultural tendencies (good and bad, just like everywhere else), and a large portion of which has its own nickname, the Bible Belt, because of its heavy conservative Christian population. The latter, however, refers to a time period when many Southern states wanted the "freedom" to maintain the arbitrary notion that certain people not only didn't deserve those same freedoms, but weren't even people, during a time when that was starting to be recognized for what it was.

 

[Wirey]

The Dukes of Hazard was too little too late. Its like a joke at a massacre. As a kid I watched it, and I liked it but didn't really understand at the time what it meant to black Americans to see that flag all over the place.

All of my black friends hated that show and I never clued into why until just now.

 

[Brickjectivity]

All of my black friends hated that show and I never clued into why until just now.

ha ha ha Ka-boom!

 

[gsa]

It is apparent many do not realize the Civil War was fought over more things than just slavery. Taxation, secession, military, economy...of course slavery was a major issue, but that was not the only issue.
One thing I don't think we need to do is outlaw the flag. I would say it is inappropriate for state buildings to display it, as it is the flag of a another nation, but if people want to display it, that is their own prerogative. But trying to insist the flag itself is a symbol of slavery is like trying to say the swastika itself is a symbol of hatred.

This is rather like saying that the European theater in the Second World War was fought over things apart from the ethnocentric and genocidal ambitions of the Nazis. Slavery was the issue, and the related issues stem from the fight to preserve the slave economy. And yes, the Nazi swastika is absolutely a symbol of hatred. Hitler himself outlined its design and racial symbolism in Mein Kampf.

What we call the "Confederate flag" today is the rejected design of William Porcher Miles, a design that became the battle flag and was ultimately incorporated into the national Confederate flags (third and fourth versions, respectively). The designer of the actual Confederate flag that incorporated the battle flag, William T Thompson, was very conscious of using racial imagery. The inspiration for the battle flag design predates it, based on a secessionist flag that predated the Civil War and featured a cross with fifteen stars representing the fifteen slaveholding states (as opposed to the thirteen that would later constitute the confederacy). The stars were in a Latin cross; Miles just changed the cross into a heraldic saltire after a Jewish acquaintance suggested it be made less sectarian.

Of course, a battle flag is even more militant, which makes its political adoption a century later all the more clear about the intent behind its modern use:

But as a political symbol, the flag was revived when northern Democrats began to press for an end to the South’s system of racial oppression. In 1948, the Dixiecrats revolted against President Harry Truman—who had desegregated the armed forces and supported anti-lynching bills. The movement began in Mississippi in February of 1948, with thousands of activists “shouting rebel yells and waving the Confederate flag,” as the Associated Press reported at the time. Some actually removed old, mothballed flags from the trunks where they had until then been gathering dust.

At the Democratic convention that July, nine southern states backed Georgia’s Senator Richard Russell over Truman, parading around the floor behind a waving Confederate flag to the strains of Dixie. The Dixiecrats reconvened in Birmingham, nominating South Carolina Governor Strom Thurmond for the presidency. Sales of Confederate flags, long moribund, exploded. Stores could not keep them in stock. The battle flag became the symbol of segregation.

The flag soon spread. It fluttered from the radio antennas of cars and motorcycles, festooned towels and trinkets, and was exhibited on both sides of the Mason-Dixon line. Some displayed it as a curiosity, a general symbol of rebellion against authority, or an emblem of regional pride. The United Daughters of the Confederacy were split on how to respond, some pleased to see young people showing interest, others calling the proliferation of flags a “desecration.” Newspapers tried to explain the craze, citing explanations from football fans to historically themed balls.

It is simply inaccurate to say this hate symbol does not represent racism.

 

[leibowde84]

Perhaps they tire of city folk thinking they represent everyone?
Or ferriners telling'm what they think?
More likely they just represent themselves.

I think it is far more appropriate for the "city folk" to represent America than the rural lifestyle. But, as long as we get away from this truck driving, gun wielding, confederate flag flying, crappy beer drinking american persona, I'm fine with whatever.

 

[Revoltingest]

I think it is far more appropriate for the "city folk" to represent America than the rural lifestyle. But, as long as we get away from this truck driving, gun wielding, confederate flag flying, crappy beer drinking american persona, I'm fine with whatever.

An anti-rural attitude?
That's hardly progressive.
City folk ain't no better'n we'ns.
And the former will vary greatly too.
Anyway, there's no demographic group which can claim to be representative of all.

 

[leibowde84]

An anti-rural attitude?
That's hardly progressive.
City folk ain't no better'n we'ns.
And the former will vary greatly too.
Anyway, there's no demographic group which can claim to be representative of all.

I agree. We shouldn't have one represent us, as we are such a varied society.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Today, South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley called for the Confederate flag to be removed from the state capitol grounds. As did South Carolina senator Lindsey Graham. As Graham said:

Lindsey Graham on Monday joined his home state’s two other top elected officials in calling for the Confederate battle flag’s removal from the Capitol grounds, just a few days after the senior South Carolina senator said that while it was time for South Carolinians to consider taking down the flag, it marked a “part of who we are.”

Graham, a 2016 presidential candidate, told CNN on Friday said that “the flag represents to some people, a civil war, and that was the symbol of one side. To others, it’s a racist symbol and it’s been used by people in a racist way.”

But the Confederacy was an openly racist, slave-supporting, seditious movement. Is this really a difficult question? Can one imagine if some Germans proudly displayed the Nazi Swastika, defending it on the grounds of tradition and heritage?

To me the question of the Confederate flag is easy: Let the racists wave it proudly on their own time and on their own dime. It is deeply immoral to even offer the slightest defense of that symbol, and what it represents, as political representative who has taken an oath to defend the US constitution, which repudiates it.

As someone who has grown up in the south and someone who is an atheist, a liberal and staunch supporter of human rights of both the racial and sexually oriented type, I don't fully understand this anti-confederate flag issue. To me and to most in the south the confederate flag has absolutely nothing to do with racism. The confederacy did happen. It is an important part of what the south is and its history. By extension this means that it has a lot to do with the heritage and culture of the south today. To ban it feels mostly like an attack on "southern pride" rather than against any sort of human rights issue. Its like if we banned flying the Mexican flag in cars because we found it offensive. If Texas put that ban out then there would be protests day and night that the hateful Texas government was banning the cultural identity of Mexicans and that it should be banned unconstitutional.

However its the exact same thing in the south with the confederate flag. Yes slavery was wrong. No one that I know of its advocating racism or slavery with the flag. If they are it is in the extreme minority. The vast majority of the uses of the confederate flag is to produce a certain amount of pride that one takes for being a southern individual. It expands far beyond any sort of racism or ugly history in the past. Americans have done some pretty terrible things in the past under the US flag but we will never ban it. Because, well obviously that wouldn't be practical but also because it goes beyond the bad things that it represents.

 

[leibowde84]

As someone who has grown up in the south and someone who is an atheist, a liberal and staunch supporter of human rights of both the racial and sexually oriented type, I don't fully understand this anti-confederate flag issue. To me and to most in the south the confederate flag has absolutely nothing to do with racism. The confederacy did happen. It is an important part of what the south is and its history. By extension this means that it has a lot to do with the heritage and culture of the south today. To ban it feels mostly like an attack on "southern pride" rather than against any sort of human rights issue. Its like if we banned flying the Mexican flag in cars because we found it offensive. If Texas put that ban out then there would be protests day and night that the hateful Texas government was banning the cultural identity of Mexicans and that it should be banned unconstitutional.

However its the exact same thing in the south with the confederate flag. Yes slavery was wrong. No one that I know of its advocating racism or slavery with the flag. If they are it is in the extreme minority. The vast majority of the uses of the confederate flag is to produce a certain amount of pride that one takes for being a southern individual. It expands far beyond any sort of racism or ugly history in the past. Americans have done some pretty terrible things in the past under the US flag but we will never ban it. Because, well obviously that wouldn't be practical but also because it goes beyond the bad things that it represents.

"Banning" the flag is not at issue. The discussion is about whether State Owned property should display a flag that, to millions of Americans, represents our nations history of slave ownership, torture, suppression and all around prejudice. I wholeheartedly agree that banning the flag would be unconstitutional and wrong, but I certainly support the current initiative to have it removed from Official State owned locations. I fail to see a valid argument for offending so many African Americans for absolutely no reason. Nothing is gained by having the Confederate flag, a symbol of a treasonous pseudo-nation, displayed on the top of Government buildings. I am all ears if someone can point to them though.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

"Banning" the flag is not at issue. The discussion is about whether State Owned property should display a flag that, to millions of Americans, represents our nations history of slave ownership, torture, suppression and all around prejudice. I wholeheartedly agree that banning the flag would be unconstitutional and wrong, but I certainly support the current initiative to have it removed from Official State owned locations. I fail to see a valid argument for offending so many African Americans for absolutely no reason. Nothing is gained by having the Confederate flag, a symbol of a treasonous pseudo-nation, displayed on the top of Government buildings. I am all ears if someone can point to them though.

I don't think the state should have a flag no. But there are several instances where people have had the flag forcefully removed from certain places that were private. That I do not agree with.

Do you have a problem with a non-racist having the flag on the back of their truck for example?

I also find this to be a disturbing trend. I want to ask you first though. Where did you grow up? Where did you receive your education? You don't have to give me a city or anything but a state would do. Where do you live currently and if none of those included the south have you ever lived in the south for an extended period of time?

 

[leibowde84]

I don't think the state should have a flag no. But there are several instances where people have had the flag forcefully removed from certain places that were private. That I do not agree with.

Do you have a problem with a non-racist having the flag on the back of their truck for example?

I also find this to be a disturbing trend. I want to ask you first though. Where did you grow up? Where did you receive your education? You don't have to give me a city or anything but a state would do. Where do you live currently and if none of those included the south have you ever lived in the south for an extended period of time?

1. I haven't heard of anything being forcefully removed from private property, but I would definitely be interested if you can provide a link. I heard a lot about license plates, but they are State owned property as well, so I do not think that the flag belongs on those at all either.
2. If it is on their private property, I don't have a problem with it, but I do find myself thinking that they are a bit "hillbilly". I'm not concerned so much with what the driver's intent would be in displaying it. Rather, I am considering the viewpoint of an entire population of African Americans who, reasonably I might add, find it to be a representation of our history of racism. I think their disgust is sufficient reasoning to 1. be decent enough to not display it on your personal property, and 2. ban it from Government owned buildings.
3. I grew up in DC, but I went to college in Florida. Spent about 5 years living in St. Petersburg, if that helps.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

1. I haven't heard of anything being forcefully removed from private property, but I would definitely be interested if you can provide a link. I heard a lot about license plates, but they are State owned property as well, so I do not think that the flag belongs on those at all either.

If you truly want to debate It I can find some links. But I don't actually care to go into it much myself. That isn't the issue at hand. The issue at hand is more along the lines of an indoctrinated sense of thinking about the South both historically and currently. I find it almost on par with racism in some cases which is part of the wedge between the north and south that lingers today. Thankfully it seems the majority of the population either doesn't talk about it so its mostly a non-issue or in my hopes it is not something continually thought.

2. If it is on their private property, I don't have a problem with it, but I do find myself thinking that they are a bit "hillbilly". I'm not concerned so much with what the driver's intent would be in displaying it. Rather, I am considering the viewpoint of an entire population of African Americans who, reasonably I might add, find it to be a representation of our history of racism. I think their disgust is sufficient reasoning to 1. be decent enough to not display it on your personal property, and 2. ban it from Government owned buildings.

Ban it from government buildings I understand. In fact I can think of no reason what so ever a non-current flag of any kind should be on a government building. I don't really much care which flag it is. On private property I think they should be allowed to wave it all they want.

3. I grew up in DC, but I went to college in Florida. Spent about 5 years living in St. Petersburg, if that helps.

It makes sense. Though St. Petersburg isn't something I would really call "the south" in terms of mentality or experience. Perhaps Tallahassee or Jacksonville but not Miami Orlando or Tampa areas. Though it does confirm my suspicion.

 

[leibowde84]

If you truly want to debate It I can find some links. But I don't actually care to go into it much myself. That isn't the issue at hand. The issue at hand is more along the lines of an indoctrinated sense of thinking about the South both historically and currently. I find it almost on par with racism in some cases which is part of the wedge between the north and south that lingers today. Thankfully it seems the majority of the population either doesn't talk about it so its mostly a non-issue or in my hopes it is not something continually thought.

Ban it from government buildings I understand. In fact I can think of no reason what so ever a non-current flag of any kind should be on a government building. I don't really much care which flag it is. On private property I think they should be allowed to wave it all they want.

It makes sense. Though St. Petersburg isn't something I would really call "the south" in terms of mentality or experience. Perhaps Tallahassee or Jacksonville but not Miami Orlando or Tampa areas. Though it does confirm my suspicion.

Right. I do not claim to be "a southerner", but I also fail to see why the South should have more say in this issue than any other region of the US. Again, I am not in favor of any ban for personal property. But, I am not a supporter of Southern Tradition in any way. Racism is STILL rampant in many southern states like Georgia, Alabama, Tennessee, etc. I remember driving down to school during Katrina and stopping at what seemed to be a nice diner. I remember the waitress walking over to us as we were watching news stories of looting in New Orleans. She bent over and said to me, "I don't want to say nothing, but look at what color all of their skin is". Then, in Savannah, I got into an argument with someone who used the "n-word" in common speech like it was not a big deal. To be brief, I almost threw up.

If I did not see this kind of behavior every single time I visited the south, I probably wouldn't have so much animosity for the Confederacy and Southern Pride in general. But, my experience in the south has led me to believe that prejudice is still alive and well, and the Confederate Flag is surely not helping the situation.