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Israel and the soon return of Yeshua Christ
- Thread starter InChrist
- Start date
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
Yes, but what about the season. Can we know the season?
Can we know the year?
Can we know the month?
Can we know the week?
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
Do you have any Biblical evidence to share to support many returns of the Lord? I would find such information fascinating, to say the least.
Yes He is already here. He is within us.
I personally have been hearing Christians tell me for over forty years Jesus is coming back soon and this even happen in the 1840s when the Catholic Church invented the rapture lie. Why do you ask such silly questions instead of look at the facts?
That is really funny. Here it is
Mt 24:27:Light or lighting
Rev. 16:15: thief
Matt. 25:6: bridegroom
Rev 22:16/2:28: morning star
Mal 4:2: sun of righteousness
Phip 3:20,21: resurrection power
II Thes. 1 7-8: flaming fire
Mal 3 1-3: priesthood company, fuller soap, refining fire
1 Thes 4:16-17: air
Hos. 6:3/James 5:7-8: rain
Rev 19:11-14: on white horse
Ma 25:31-34: king
1 Peter 5:4: Chief Sheppard
Ma 16:27: Comes with angels
Jude 14:/1 John 14:18/
II Thes 1:10: comes with saints
Jude 14:15: Judgment
Rev 22:12: with reward
I showed twenty different ways He was coming now show me your non biblical rapture and non biblical second coming?
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
Now show that each of your examples refer to separate comings. Please show that they are not all references to the same coming.
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
The Rapture, if it is a real event, which I believe it is, is not the Second Coming.
Well how come I just gave you twenty verses on the return of the Lord and no where was the word rapture or second coming mentioned. Do you have to invent words that are non- scriptural to show something scriptural?
Both of these words are Non-scriptural words and there are many returns of the Lord which I see you cannot admit after I posted the verses. BUT no rapture or second coming.
Read your Bible
Sure: lets start with (I Thes. 4:17).
"We ... shall be caught up together with them... to MEET the Lord IN THE AIR: and SO shall we ever be with the Lord"
The word "meeting" (apantesin, Grk.) appears four times in the New Testament (Mat. 25:1,6; Acts 28:15; I Thes. 4-17), and carries the thought of a CONFERENCE, an ASSEMBLY, or a CONVOCATION. It signifies much more than merely coming into contact with our Lord and standing in His presence. In essence, we are call to a HOLY CONVOCATION, to participate in the high activities of a HOLY ASSEMBLY that is "caught up" into a high place in God, a sphere of exaltation, influence, and authority. All through the scriptures it is common to find natural elements of the earth that represent spiritual realities. Truly, we shall be caught up to meet the Lord in the "air," and the word " air" is AER in the Greek, meaning "to breathe," and its usage throughout the New Testament consistently indicates the "atmosphere" surrounding the earth.
Our catching up "into the air" can never be properly understood apart from the inspired words of the apostle Paul in Eph. 2:1-2 wherein he states, "And you has He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: wherein in time past you walked according to the course of this world, according to the PRINCE OF THE POWER OF THE AIR, the SPIRIT that now WORKS IN the children of disobedience." There are several key words and terms that unlock the storehouse of truth contained in these verses. Consider - PRINCE, POWER, AIR, SPIRIT, WORKS, and IN. According to these plain statements of scripture there exists a "power of the air." This "power of the air" is a "spirit," and this spirit is located "in the sons of disobedience, wherein he "works." Can we not see by this that the "prince of the power of the air" is not something or someone outside of us, but a spirit-power that operates right here WITHIN MAN. Furthermore, this spirit-power that works within man also emanates from man, exerting an influence throughout the atmosphere that surrounds the earth, giving motivation to the myriad activities and events that transpire in the world. Thus, it is called the "POWER of the AIR."
The natural minded Christian is looking to be suddenly snatched up into the air, away from the earth, to inhabit mansions on golden streets somewhere in the blue beyond. The spiritual Christian looks to be LAID HOLD UPON BY A HIGHER POWER and lifted into a realm from which He can do something for this world.
Some people get bent all out of shape when we tell them that Jesus is not returning riding upon a rain cloud. Let me assure you - the prophecies of the Bible are to be believed! But let us be careful that we do not make them mean something which God did not intend. The mistake that many make is to say that all those prophecies are to be fulfilled in a very physical and natural sense, when the New Testament interpretations indicate that the prophecies do indeed have a literal fulfillment but with a spiritual interpretation. We need to understand that much of the language of the Bible is couched in symbolism, metaphors and allegories.
Another proof that the "clouds" with which Christ comes are in reality the sons of God IN THEIR GLORY is couched in the terminology of the scriptures on this subject. Note that in most places the passages in question speak of Christ coming "WITH CLOUDS." There is only one other group or plurality of objects of which it is stated that Christ comes "with" them, and that is - the SAINTS! The Bible never says that Jesus returns "to" the clouds or "out of" the clouds. It is very careful to tell us that lie comes "with" clouds. And it also tells us that tie comes "with" His saints. "To the end He may establish your hearts ... at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ W-I-T-H ALL HIS SAINTS" (I Thes. 3:13). Jude says, "And Enoch also ... prophesied ... saying, Behold, the Lord cometh W-I-T-H TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS" (Jude 14). The Amplified is helpful, when it reads, "Behold,the Lord comes W-I-T-H MYRIADS OF HOLY ONES - ten thousands of His saints." But the Interlineary reading from the Diaglott translation gives the clearest of all renderings from the Greek text, so we note, "Lo, comes Lord I-N HOLY MYRIADS OF HIMSELF." "Myriads of HIMSELF." All of them partakers of His divine nature, conformed to His image, filled with His life. Myriads of Himself, of His own kind, born of His seed, a many brethren company of SONS - all His sons. And again we read the testimony: "And the Lord my God shall come, and ALL, THE SAINTS W-T-T-H_T-H-E-E" (Zech. 14:5). The beloved John sees this same scene in wonder-filled vision and speaking in prophetical language writes: "Behold, He cometh W-I-T-H CLOUDS; and every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7).
Rom. 8:17 contains a marvelous truth. "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also GLORIFIED TOGETHER." To be GLORIFIED TOGETHER is the hope that springs perennial within the breast of all who have by the spirit beheld HIS GLORY. This wonderful experience of being GLORIFIED TOGETHER is a reference of our union with Christ as members of His body, and speaks of a time to come when this entire company of the sons of God, IN UNION WITH CHRIST THE HEAD, shall be GLORIFIED TOGETHER - IMMERSED INTO THE LIFE OF CHRIST, sharing with Him in the fullness of His glory. This entire company shall be joined to Christ to share with Him in the blessed glorification experience when we shall partake of HIS GLORY, bcing fully transformed into the body of His likeness. Verse eighteen of Romans eight refers to that glory as "The glory which shall be revealed IN US." Therefore, it is a glory which is yet to be revealed IN US, that is, in these bodies we shall experience that great glory of Christ when we shall be clothed upon with our heavenly house so that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
We are plainly taught that when Christ who is our life, shall appear, then shall we also appear WITH HIM in glory (Col. 3:4). He can do nothing without us. We are His body. Oh, marvelous thought! Christ has bound us to Himself with ties so strong (no man would sprak of his own hand as being near or far, his hand is part of himself; no man would undertake anything without a full participation on the part of every member of his body in that event), Christ has bound us, I repeat, so eternally and utterly to Himself that we MUST figure in His movements. Of course we shall appear with Him! It could not be otherwise - we are His body. Each elect member of His body has been so grafted into the trunk of the eternal Godhead, so incorporated in His life that He and His body are one. Oh, the unutterable glory of this union with Christ! To what an ineffable destiny it commits us. We no longer concern ourselves about whether or not we shall "go to heaven." The truth of the matter is, we would rather not go, if Christ were not there. Ah, He IS heaven! The faintest glimmer of light from His holy countenance beside which the sun is but a shadow, suffices the heart. Paul could not have done otherwise than sing there in prison when at midnight with Silas, he rejoiced. His back was bleeding with the stripes; it was midnight; he was in prison. But he sings as a participant of Christ; heaven's ineffable light bursts in about him, the glory of the Lord is upon him, and the Lord manifests Himself in this cloud!
We are to participate in Christ's coming. We are moving toward the most stupendous transactions in the history of the human race. Nothing can befall Him that does not befall us. We are yet to participate in a fuller measure in the fruits of redemption. We shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. With Him we shall reign. The stream of life, which proceedeth from the throne, and from the Lamb and which breaks in upon us, so that even NOW "rivers of living water" flow from our innermost being, is going to just overflow all its banks in this day, so that death will be literally SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. Oh, that God may give us a heart to make due preparation for the participation in the yet unfulfilled history of Christ. For as we have been made to partake of the death of the Federal Head of the new race, and in Him were resurrected and made to sit in the heavenlies, so, in that sublime event toward which the church moves, the coming of Christ with clouds, we too, shall participate. Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift!
Another proof that the "clouds" with which Christ comes are in reality the sons of God IN THEIR GLORY is couched in the terminology of the scriptures on this subject. Note that in most places the passages in question speak of Christ coming "WITH CLOUDS." There is only one other group or plurality of objects of which it is stated that Christ comes "with" them, and that is - the SAINTS! The Bible never says that Jesus returns "to" the clouds or "out of" the clouds. It is very careful to tell us that lie comes "with" clouds. And it also tells us that tie comes "with" His saints. "To the end He may establish your hearts ... at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ W-I-T-H ALL HIS SAINTS" (I Thes. 3:13). Jude says, "And Enoch also ... prophesied ... saying, Behold, the Lord cometh W-I-T-H TEN THOUSANDS OF SAINTS" (Jude 14). The Amplified is helpful, when it reads, "Behold,the Lord comes W-I-T-H MYRIADS OF HOLY ONES - ten thousands of His saints." But the Interlineary reading from the Diaglott translation gives the clearest of all renderings from the Greek text, so we note, "Lo, comes Lord I-N HOLY MYRIADS OF HIMSELF." "Myriads of HIMSELF." All of them partakers of His divine nature, conformed to His image, filled with His life. Myriads of Himself, of His own kind, born of His seed, a many brethren company of SONS - all His sons. And again we read the testimony: "And the Lord my God shall come, and ALL, THE SAINTS W-T-T-H_T-H-E-E" (Zech. 14:5). The beloved John sees this same scene in wonder-filled vision and speaking in prophetical language writes: "Behold, He cometh W-I-T-H CLOUDS; and every eye shall see Him" (Rev. 1:7).
Rom. 8:17 contains a marvelous truth. "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also GLORIFIED TOGETHER." To be GLORIFIED TOGETHER is the hope that springs perennial within the breast of all who have by the spirit beheld HIS GLORY. This wonderful experience of being GLORIFIED TOGETHER is a reference of our union with Christ as members of His body, and speaks of a time to come when this entire company of the sons of God, IN UNION WITH CHRIST THE HEAD, shall be GLORIFIED TOGETHER - IMMERSED INTO THE LIFE OF CHRIST, sharing with Him in the fullness of His glory. This entire company shall be joined to Christ to share with Him in the blessed glorification experience when we shall partake of HIS GLORY, bcing fully transformed into the body of His likeness. Verse eighteen of Romans eight refers to that glory as "The glory which shall be revealed IN US." Therefore, it is a glory which is yet to be revealed IN US, that is, in these bodies we shall experience that great glory of Christ when we shall be clothed upon with our heavenly house so that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
We are plainly taught that when Christ who is our life, shall appear, then shall we also appear WITH HIM in glory (Col. 3:4). He can do nothing without us. We are His body. Oh, marvelous thought! Christ has bound us to Himself with ties so strong (no man would sprak of his own hand as being near or far, his hand is part of himself; no man would undertake anything without a full participation on the part of every member of his body in that event), Christ has bound us, I repeat, so eternally and utterly to Himself that we MUST figure in His movements. Of course we shall appear with Him! It could not be otherwise - we are His body. Each elect member of His body has been so grafted into the trunk of the eternal Godhead, so incorporated in His life that He and His body are one. Oh, the unutterable glory of this union with Christ! To what an ineffable destiny it commits us. We no longer concern ourselves about whether or not we shall "go to heaven." The truth of the matter is, we would rather not go, if Christ were not there. Ah, He IS heaven! The faintest glimmer of light from His holy countenance beside which the sun is but a shadow, suffices the heart. Paul could not have done otherwise than sing there in prison when at midnight with Silas, he rejoiced. His back was bleeding with the stripes; it was midnight; he was in prison. But he sings as a participant of Christ; heaven's ineffable light bursts in about him, the glory of the Lord is upon him, and the Lord manifests Himself in this cloud!
We are to participate in Christ's coming. We are moving toward the most stupendous transactions in the history of the human race. Nothing can befall Him that does not befall us. We are yet to participate in a fuller measure in the fruits of redemption. We shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is. With Him we shall reign. The stream of life, which proceedeth from the throne, and from the Lamb and which breaks in upon us, so that even NOW "rivers of living water" flow from our innermost being, is going to just overflow all its banks in this day, so that death will be literally SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY. Oh, that God may give us a heart to make due preparation for the participation in the yet unfulfilled history of Christ. For as we have been made to partake of the death of the Federal Head of the new race, and in Him were resurrected and made to sit in the heavenlies, so, in that sublime event toward which the church moves, the coming of Christ with clouds, we too, shall participate. Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift!
No, it's you not making any sense.
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
Well, actually, the word rapture is the English word for the word Harpazo, which is the English transliterated form of the Greek word (αρπάζω
, which is of course the word we are discussing, which means "to snatch up" according to Strong's Concordance.
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
Interestingly, your 4th paragraph is worded exactly in the words of F. J. Huegel in his book "Bone of His Bone", from the 5th paragraph of Chapter 10. I note that you did not cite his work as your reference. Perhaps He doesn't deserve any credit for his work. What do you think about that?
Well, actually, the word rapture is the English word for the word Harpazo, which is the English transliterated form of the Greek word (αρπάζω
I understand that. The Rapture and second coming are both unscriptural words. Rapture is a man made religious term from the Latin not the Greek; it is an escapism doctrine that makes Gods people complacent and spiritual lazy.
The "rapture" teaching was NOT taught by the early Church, it was NOT taught by the Church of the first centuries, it was NOT taught by the Reformers, IT WAS NOT TAUGHT BY ANYONE (except a couple Roman Catholic theologians) UNTIL ABOUT THE YEAR 1830!
At the time of the Reformation the early Protestants widely held and were convinced that the Pope was the supreme individual embodiment and personification of the spirit of antichrist, and the Roman Church the Harlot System of Rev. 17.
For this reason the rapture was started by Rome to counter the above controversy.
THE RAPTURE is a term that is never used in the Bible, although, there are many words and scriptures that do mean the same thing, and CAUGHT UP (HARPAZO) is one of those words. The World Book Dictionary gives us this definition of the word: "rapture, A strong feeling that absorbs the mind; very great joy. A feeling of being lifted high in mind and spirit; being filled with and completely taken up in feeling or delight or bliss." With this, I believe we would be justified in teaching about being "raptured" (in mind and spirit as the word implies), but we would err if we taught it contrary to what the scriptures and the Spirit have to say about it.
Let us read again 1 Thes. 4:16-17, but incorporating the Greek and see what might lay beneath the surface: "Because Himself the Lord IN a command, IN a voice of a Chief Messenger, and IN a trumpet of God will come down from heaven, and the dead ones in anointed will be raised first; afterwards we the living ones, those being left over, at the same time with them shall be seized in clouds into a meeting of the Lord into air; and so in this manner with Lord shall we always be."
IN
IN a voice,
and IN a trumpet speak of THE LORD HIMSELF as being IN that which is spoken;
and in this incident we have THREE (indicating completeness) words (command, voice, and trumpet) that denotes a word spoken. What then, would this signify, especially since the Lord Himself is IN each of them? We are familiar with the word LOGOS -- the very ESSENCE, THOUGHT, and INTENT OF GOD IN MANIFESTATION.
Therefore, being that the Lord is IN these three words that convey a message, we conclude that it is THE LOGOS WHICH IS SPOKEN here -- the expression of the very substance of God Himself. It is the very thing which Jesus was declared to be! (Heb. 1:3). In other words, Jesus in the pure and complete form of the living God is descending from the highest realm of our heavens and into the conscious realm of our soul to give us something that will cause us to rise beyond our wildest imaginations! What a COMMAND, what a VOICE, what a TRUMPET! Praise God, it is THE LOGOS OF HIMSELF that our mighty Lord and chief messenger is and will be descending with and INTO those who are his ministers of flaming fire. First, into the firstfruits and then Christ into the world through the firstfruits. Not only does He come into His elect with the voice of a trumpeting commander, but when they are caught up to this place of the high calling of God, they will become that resounding trumpet of the Lord -- THE LOGOS REVEALING THE FATHER OF US ALL! IN A SHOUT -- A COMMAND!
I am sure he does but I have no reference to him, I got this information from a friend. What I think about that is no matter where the work was first publish lets attack this man made lie instead of defend something that is wrong.
Sonofason
Well-Known Member
You missed the point. the Greek word (αρπάζω
, is of course the word we are discussing, which means "to snatch up" according to Strong's Concordance. It doesn't matter what the Latin word is. The word rapture is simply the english word for the Latin word for the Greek word (αρπάζω, which means "to snatch up". This is the word we are discussing. We shall be "snatched up".To where?You missed the point. the Greek word (αρπάζω
Air?
CloudS notice the plural
InChrist
Free4ever
I agree and think according to the scriptures, including the New Testament, "Israel" always means Israel; the land/nation and/or the physical descendants of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.
InChrist
Free4ever
I believe the idea of the lost 10 tribes of Israel is a myth. The scriptures do not support any such notion and clearly reveal that before and after the Assyrian conquest of the northern kingdom of Israel the various tribes of the children of Israel were represented in Judah the southern kingdom.