Israel and the soon return of Yeshua Christ

[metis]

Jesus is the WORD of God (John 1:1). I don't think literally believing His words is elevating the scriptures to the level of idolatry in any way at all. How can believing Jesus be enough if one disregards what He says?

Sorry but that is idolatry. The Bible is not God and God is not the Bible, and elevating any object to divine proportions is idolatry.

In regards to Jesus, I do believe it's at least fairly clear to most where he was coming from in general, therefore the specifics are of less importance, imo. To me, he taught compassion and justice, along with a firm belief in God of course.

 

[InChrist]

Sorry but that is idolatry. The Bible is not God and God is not the Bible, and elevating any object to divine proportions is idolatry.

In regards to Jesus, I do believe it's at least fairly clear to most where he was coming from in general, therefore the specifics are of less importance, imo. To me, he taught compassion and justice, along with a firm belief in God of course.

You are entitled to any opinion you feel like. But I don't think God who I believe chose to communicate with humanity through language, will appreciate you calling the written words of the scriptures preserved through history an a idol. Yes, Jesus taught compassion and justice, but we wouldn't know much of anything about Him, or God, human nature, sin, salvation, eternity, etc. were it not for the scriptures. I think the reality is that you like many, many people today and throughout time prefer to make up their own ideas about God and come up with their own spiritual smorgasbord, instead of accepting what God has revealed in His word.

 

[Me Myself]

You are entitled to any opinion you feel like. But I don't think God who I believe chose to communicate with humanity through language, will appreciate you calling the written words of the scriptures preserved through history an a idol. Yes, Jesus taught compassion and justice, but we wouldn't know much of anything about Him, or God, human nature, sin, salvation, eternity, etc. were it not for the scriptures. I think the reality is that you like many, many people today and throughout time prefer to make up their own ideas about God and come up with their own spiritual smorgasbord, instead of accepting what God has revealed in His word.

Its good that you know exactly what God says in the bible, not like all of us that cant look at the text unbiased.

You are just so imparcial. Its so good to be you.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

That's fine that you're more of a preterist, but preterism has never made sense to me with the way such theology replaces Israel with the church and applies the promises of God for Israel to the church instead. I think with preterism many clear scriptures must be taken in the allegorical sense, ignored, and spiritualized away rather than taken literally and I consider this to be an incorrect approach to interpreting and understanding the Bible.

Do you take the book of Revelation literally?

 

[metis]

You are entitled to any opinion you feel like. But I don't think God who I believe chose to communicate with humanity through language, will appreciate you calling the written words of the scriptures preserved through history an a idol.

People who believe in idols so often justify their idolatry often by denouncing those who refuse to recognize their idols. Secondly, how do you know that God supposedly only communicated through the Bible?

Yes, Jesus taught compassion and justice, but we wouldn't know much of anything about Him, or God, human nature, sin, salvation, eternity, etc. were it not for the scriptures.

But what do the other things really matter if one lives out their life through compassion and justice towards all? Check both Matthew 25 and also the Sermon on the Mount for verification of this. Also, there's this thing most Christians believe about the "Holy Spirit", so do you believe the "H.S." has no effect?

I think the reality is that you like many, many people today and throughout time prefer to make up their own ideas about God and come up with their own spiritual smorgasbord, instead of accepting what God has revealed in His word.

Wow, you really think you know me that well to accuse me of the above? So, you're my judge even though Jesus said to "judge ye not..."? And who says that I don't accept "what God has revealed in His word"?

You are doing what is frankly quite immoral by, not only by judging others, but then having the audacity to believe that you can be "God's counselor", which is also prohibited. Is it justice to condemn a person whom you don't even know? Is it justice to put things into a person's mouth things that they haven't even said to you? I haven't judged you, and yet you think you have the moral right to supposedly judge me?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You are doing what is frankly quite immoral by, not only by judging others, but then having the audacity to believe that you can be "God's counselor", which is also prohibited. Is it justice to condemn a person whom you don't even know? Is it justice to put things into a person's mouth things that they haven't even said to you? I haven't judged you, and yet you think you have the moral right to supposedly judge me?

Very well said, but too easily dismissed by those whose theology is essentially parasitical.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

People who believe in idols so often justify their idolatry often by denouncing those who refuse to recognize their idols. Secondly, how do you know that God supposedly only communicated through the Bible?




But what do the other things really matter if one lives out their life through compassion and justice towards all? Check both Matthew 25 and also the Sermon on the Mount for verification of this. Also, there's this thing most Christians believe about the "Holy Spirit", so do you believe the "H.S." has no effect?



Wow, you really think you know me that well to accuse me of the above? So, you're my judge even though Jesus said to "judge ye not..."? And who says that I don't accept "what God has revealed in His word"?

You are doing what is frankly quite immoral by, not only by judging others, but then having the audacity to believe that you can be "God's counselor", which is also prohibited. Is it justice to condemn a person whom you don't even know? Is it justice to put things into a person's mouth things that they haven't even said to you? I haven't judged you, and yet you think you have the moral right to supposedly judge me?

Reminds me of when Jobs friends started accusing him of having done something wrong, because they knew Gods way oh so well....

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Reminds me of when Jobs friends started accusing him of having done something wrong, because they knew Gods way oh so well....

Job is a superb polemic and its inclusion in canon strikes me as remarkably courageous and honest.

 

[InChrist]

People who believe in idols so often justify their idolatry often by denouncing those who refuse to recognize their idols. Secondly, how do you know that God supposedly only communicated through the Bible?

First, I did not denounce you or anyone. I have simply disagreed with your accusation of the scriptures as an idol. Secondly, in the OT the phrase “thus says the LORD” is used at least 400 times in reference to the words recorded in the scriptures. In the NT Jesus, besides often quoting the written scriptures, highlighted their importance...

“It is written, ‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.’” Matthew4:4

Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. Matthew 22:29

And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. Luke 24:45

Jesus answered and said to them, “Are you not therefore mistaken, because you do not know the Scriptures nor the power of God? Mark 12:24

As did the apostles...

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. 1 Timothy 3:15-17

These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. Acts 17:11

And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts; knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:19-21
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But what do the other things really matter if one lives out their life through compassion and justice towards all? Check both Matthew 25 and also the Sermon on the Mount for verification of this.

I have no disagreement that compassion and justice are of prominent importance in the life and teachings of Christ. Yet, I believe all the words of scripture matter because things such as compassion and justice can be subjective with each person having a different definition without the revealed perspective of God through His word. For example, someone may sincerely feel that justice means to take revenge upon their enemy, but what does the Bible say?

Also, there's this thing most Christians believe about the "Holy Spirit", so do you believe the "H.S." has no effect?

Yes, I believe in the Holy Spirit and I also believe the Holy Spirit guides through the scriptures and never contradicts the scriptures.

Wow, you really think you know me that well to accuse me of the above? So, you're my judge even though Jesus said to "judge ye not..."? And who says that I don't accept "what God has revealed in His word"?

You are doing what is frankly quite immoral by, not only by judging others, but then having the audacity to believe that you can be "God's counselor", which is also prohibited. Is it justice to condemn a person whom you don't even know? Is it justice to put things into a person's mouth things that they haven't even said to you? I haven't judged you, and yet you think you have the moral right to supposedly judge me?

[/quote]


I am not judging, nor condemning you in any way. If I am judging you then you need to turn around and look at yourself since you have already judged that I am immoral and practice idolatry. You are guilty of doing the very thing you are telling me I should not do, which I haven't done, since I am only disagreeing with your position. The reality is that everyone judges ideas, teachings, beliefs, and actions every day. If someone says it’s okay to steal your car, would you say well I can’t make a judgment, so go ahead? Or if someone commits a murder, should you look at that and say it is wrong or would you say “I’m not supposed to judge”?

Furthermore, there are significant logical problems with the claim that we should not make judgments. The first becomes evident when the context of Matthew 7:1 is read, because Christ is not speaking broadly against all sound judgment, but warning specifically against making judgments in a hypocritical or condemning manner. For example, if I told you to read and believe the scriptures and judged and condemned you for not doing so, but I didn’t read or believe them myself... then this is the type hypocritical judgment Jesus was referring to.


Secondly, throughout the scriptures we are called to use discernment and make judgments (OT and NT) concerning right and wrong, truth and falsehood based on what God has said is true or false. That is the kind of judgment I am doing related to my perspective that the scriptures are the word of God and necessary for accurate spiritual understanding. It is perfectly legitimate for me to make this judgment and to disagree with your position, that to believe all the scriptures is idolatry or that “specifics are of less importance”( to quote you post #81).

 

[InChrist]

Do you take the book of Revelation literally?

I take the whole Bible literally. When the plain reading of it in context makes good sense I seek no other sense. The context makes it clear when it is symbolic. Revelation has much symbolism, but also aspects that are literal, in my perspective.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I take the whole Bible literally. When the plain reading of it in context makes good sense I seek no other sense. The context makes it clear when it is symbolic. Revelation has much symbolism, but also aspects that are literal, in my perspective.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Yeah, like what was literally happening at the time that it was written...Christian Persecution, the splitting of the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians, the aftermath of the destruction of the Temple, the death of James, the circulation of the Gospesl and Pauls writings...lot of chaotic things were coming to pass at that time...but I guess you can say that it's talking about the future too.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Job is a superb polemic and its inclusion in canon strikes me as remarkably courageous and honest.

When his life was ruined, his family killed, his farm destroyed, Job knelt down on the ground and yelled up to the heavens, "Why god? Why me?" and the thundering voice of God answered, There's just something about you that ****** me off.
—— Stephen King (Storm of the Century: An Original Screenplay)

 

[metis]

I have simply disagreed with your accusation of the scriptures as an idol.

I did not say that. What I said was that if one elevates any scriptures to divine proportions, that's idolatry because it's taking an object, in this case the Bible, and saying that it's somehow perfect.

I am not judging, nor condemning you in any way. If I am judging you then you need to turn around and look at yourself since you have already judged that I am immoral and practice idolatry.

Wait a minute, you just contradicted yourself above. Secondly, I did not accuse you of being "immoral" or that you "practiced idolatry". "Belief" is not the same as "practice".

Furthermore, there are significant logical problems with the claim that we should not make judgments.

There's a difference between making judgments and judging people. We can and do judge the actions of people all the time, and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. But the minute you take the position that someone is going to hell unless they believe as you do is indeed judging others. Paul even said he could not judge himself.

It is perfectly legitimate for me to make this judgment and to disagree with your position, that to believe all the scriptures is idolatry or that “specifics are of less importance”( to quote you post #81)

I never said or implied that "all the scriptures is idolatry".

Why are you being so disingenuous here by having me say things I never said or implied?

 

[metis]

Even though this is getting away from the central topic, let me throw in my two cents (OK, maybe it's only one cent) here on one item that relates to what we are now discussing.

Which translation of the Bible is "perfect"? the original manuscripts? Well, we don't have any of those, and even the DSS are copies? But let's say that somehow miraculously you have the "perfect" copy, and let's proceed from there.

In order to understand "perfection", one logically would have to be "perfect" themselves? So, which of us is "perfect"? My wife says I'm a "perfect ___", but I'll not fill in the last word, OK? :slap:

So, no matter how we look at it, we're dealing with texts that we cannot assume to be "perfect", nor does it matter much anyhow because we ourselves are not "perfect" enough to understand "perfection". Therefore, the idea that any scriptures are somehow inerrant is really quite nonsensical for both reasons cited above.

Now, the above doesn't negate the importance of these scriptures, and the approach that I take with them is to read them, try to understand them, and then learn from them that might be applicable to my and our everyday life. It's not a perfect approach, but I find it useful for me.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Does anyone else see this clear fulfillment of God's prophetic word taking place right before our eyes?

No, because IOV the Return already took place about a century and a half ago.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Flankerl]

I take the whole Bible literally.

So you believe that the earth and everything on it was created two times.

Say... where did the first version go? Is it like in Futurama with New New York and its beneath us?


But hey now i understand your point so much better.

 

[Jeremy Mason]

I take the whole Bible literally. When the plain reading of it in context makes good sense I seek no other sense. The context makes it clear when it is symbolic. Revelation has much symbolism, but also aspects that are literal, in my perspective.[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

Interesting. I would agree with you that the letters to the seven churches are not in the apocalyptic writing style. I think this is a fairly good read on the subject.

Revelation, Apocalyptic Writing and the Old Testament | Grace Communion International

Apocalyptic writers did not generally speculate about the end-time as coming in some far-off future time. This would have held little meaning for the people to whom they wrote. The apocalyptic writers were interested in the here and now. God's Messiah was coming very soon to take away the burdens of the Jewish people, and lift them on high over the gentile nations. Writers of apocalyptic, says M. Eugene Boring:

Addressed their own generation with the urgency of those who cry out for meaning in their struggle and suffering. Their question was not "When will the End come?" but "What is the meaning of our suffering?" It was not speculative calculation but the tenacity of faith which came to expression in their conviction that the End must be near (Interpretation: A Bible Commentary for Teaching and Preaching, "Revelation," p. 43).

 

[Jeremy Mason]

So you believe that the earth and everything on it was created two times.

Say... where did the first version go? Is it like in Futurama with New New York and its beneath us?


But hey now i understand your point so much better.

:clap

That's the beauty of depensationalism. Literal and symbolic are readily interchangeable.

 

[InChrist]

I did not say that. What I said was that if one elevates any scriptures to divine proportions, that's idolatry because it's taking an object, in this case the Bible, and saying that it's somehow perfect.



Wait a minute, you just contradicted yourself above. Secondly, I did not accuse you of being "immoral" or that you "practiced idolatry". "Belief" is not the same as "practice".

I am afraid from your words quoted below, it sounded pretty clear to me that you were making the judgment and insinuating that I was immoral and that my belief constituted idolatry. Actually, you expressing your opinion doesn’t bother me at all and I’m not so overly sensitive that I can’t take people judging me. It is the double standard that I find objectionable.

“Sorry but that is idolatry. The Bible is not God and God is not the Bible, and elevating any object to divine proportions is idolatry.”

“People who believe in idols so often justify their idolatry often by denouncing those who refuse to recognize their idols.”

“You are doing what is frankly quite immoral by, not only by judging others, but then having the audacity to believe that you can be "God's counselor", which is also prohibited. Is it justice to condemn a person whom you don't even know?”

There's a difference between making judgments and judging people. We can and do judge the actions of people all the time, and there's nothing intrinsically wrong with that. But the minute you take the position that someone is going to hell unless they believe as you do is indeed judging others. Paul even said he could not judge himself.

I would also like you to point out anywhere that I said anything about someone going to hell if they don’t take my position, as you have accused me by your words below...

“But the minute you take the position that someone is going to hell unless they believe as you do is indeed judging others.”

I never said or implied that "all the scriptures is idolatry".

Why are you being so disingenuous here by having me say things I never said or implied?

[/quote]

I am glad to see that you did not actually imply that placing importance on the scriptures is idolatry. If I was mistaken in my understanding of what you were saying then I’m sorry. I’m not interested in being argumentative with you, just for the sake of arguing, I prefer to understand your perspective and express mine, even if we disagree. I am also glad that you read the scriptures and try to understand them and see how they apply to your life. I would just like to clarify that I do not elevate the scriptures above God, yet, I believe they are His words and therefore inseparable from Him. If I say I believe, love, and trust God I’m not going to ignore His whole counsel as expressed through His words in the scriptures.

I also believe that the original manuscripts were perfect as written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God. While the reputable versions we have today may not be the original manuscripts, I believe they all contain the same foundational truths as has been demonstrated by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the innumerable copies of other books which show only minor errors or discrepancies revolving around spelling and grammar. I don’t think it is unreasonable to believe that God the Creator of the universe is capable of preserving His words throughout history. You may not believe this and I’m not here to say you must, but this is my perspective based on my trust in the power and faithfulness of God.

 

[InChrist]

:clap

That's the beauty of depensationalism. Literal and symbolic are readily interchangeable.

No, they are not interchangeable. When the words make perfect sense when taken literally they should be taken literally, not symbolically. On the other hand if they don't make sense, but are clearly figurative, they should be taken symbolically.