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Israel and the soon return of Yeshua Christ

InChrist

Free4ever
:facepalm:
So you believe that the earth and everything on it was created two times.

Say... where did the first version go? Is it like in Futurama with New New York and its beneath us?


But hey now i understand your point so much better.

No, I don't believe the earth was created two times and I don't see the scriptures stating so.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Yeah, like what was literally happening at the time that it was written...Christian Persecution, the splitting of the Jewish Christians and the Gentile Christians, the aftermath of the destruction of the Temple, the death of James, the circulation of the Gospesl and Pauls writings...lot of chaotic things were coming to pass at that time...but I guess you can say that it's talking about the future too.


Yes, the things you've mentioned were literally happening at the time, yet there in much in Revelation which did not occur at the time it was written which I do believe is yet future.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Its good that you know exactly what God says in the bible, not like all of us that cant look at the text unbiased.

You are just so imparcial. Its so good to be you.

Hello???

Is this coming from someone who claims to be God...You, Yourself?

I do think it is good to read the scriptures from the perspective that God is God the Creator and I am a created being. I don''t approach the Bible as if I am on equal status with the Creator of heaven and earth.
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
No, I don't believe the earth was created two times and I don't see the scriptures stating so.

Here we see that vegetation was created three days before man.

Genesis 1 NIV - The Beginning - In the beginning God - Bible Gateway
Genesis 1:11 (NIV)

11 Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. 12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. 13 And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

Genesis 2 NIV - Thus the heavens and the earth were - Bible Gateway
Genesis 2:5 (NIV)

5 Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.


Here we see that man was created before any shrub had appeared. How do you reconcile the two stories?
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I am afraid from your words quoted below, it sounded pretty clear to me that you were making the judgment and insinuating that I was immoral and that my belief constituted idolatry.

No, I was attacking the belief and not the person. Even if idolatry were perceived to be intrinsically "evil", which I actually didn't say nor do I believe is correct, I didn't imply that you were "evil". It's the old "hate the sin and not the sinner" approach, although I'm not even going so far as to call idolatry a "sin", even though most in the Abrahamic faiths believe it is.


Actually, you expressing your opinion doesn’t bother me at all and I’m not so overly sensitive that I can’t take people judging me. It is the double standard that I find objectionable.

Except there was no double-standard being used.

I would also like you to point out anywhere that I said anything about someone going to hell if they don’t take my position, as you have accused me by your words below...

This I do apologize for because I did have the impression that this is in part where you were coming from, but unless I went back through what you actually had posted up to this point, it's very possible I was conflating something someone else had said with what I thought you were saying. If I screwed up here, please accept my apology.

I am glad to see that you did not actually imply that placing importance on the scriptures is idolatry. If I was mistaken in my understanding of what you were saying then I’m sorry. I’m not interested in being argumentative with you, just for the sake of arguing, I prefer to understand your perspective and express mine, even if we disagree. I am also glad that you read the scriptures and try to understand them and see how they apply to your life. I would just like to clarify that I do not elevate the scriptures above God, yet, I believe they are His words and therefore inseparable from Him. If I say I believe, love, and trust God I’m not going to ignore His whole counsel as expressed through His words in the scriptures.

No apology necessary. BTW, I did not say you "elevate the scriptures above God". Nor am I in any way stating that what is written should be ignored, nor is that my approach.

I also believe that the original manuscripts were perfect as written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God. While the reputable versions we have today may not be the original manuscripts, I believe they all contain the same foundational truths as has been demonstrated by the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the innumerable copies of other books which show only minor errors or discrepancies revolving around spelling and grammar.

I would agree that the generalities appear to be quite accurate as far as what's been passed down from generation to generation, but it's generally quite difficult to go to the next step and actually find evidence for the accuracy of most of the narratives.


I don’t think it is unreasonable to believe that God the Creator of the universe is capable of preserving His words throughout history. You may not believe this and I’m not here to say you must, but this is my perspective based on my trust in the power and faithfulness of God.

But, which are "His words"? As an anthropologist who has studied religions throughout much of the world, almost all religions make such claim, so how is it that I can tell that the Bible is supposedly the "word of God" but the Bhagavad Gita is not?

Instead, my approach is to study as many as I can, and draw from that the wisdom found within each, especially focusing in on what I might find useful. It's an imperfect process, but it works for me.

Shalom
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Yes, the things you've mentioned were literally happening at the time, yet there in much in Revelation which did not occur at the time it was written which I do believe is yet future.

Such as?

The supernatural parts? Like a star falling from the heavens...? Cause that would wipe out all life on earth...cause you know...earth is smaller than even a small star.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Here we see that vegetation was created three days before man.



Here we see that man was created before any shrub had appeared. How do you reconcile the two stories?


I do not see a contradiction because I believe Genesis one is a description of the six days of creation while Genesis two highlights just one of those days and the details involving the creation of man. I will let the following link answer specifically the question regarding vegetation because it is also my perspective...

"There are two primary claims of contradictions between Genesis chapters 1-2. The first is in regard to plant life. Genesis 1:11 records God creating vegetation on the third day. Genesis 2:5 states that prior to the creation of man “no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground.” So, which is it? Did God create vegetation on the third day before He created man (Genesis 1), or after He created man (Genesis 2)? The Hebrew words for “vegetation” are different in the two passages. Genesis 1:11 uses a term that refers to vegetation in general. Genesis 2:5 uses a more specific term that refers to vegetation that requires agriculture, i.e., a person to tend it, a gardener. The passages do not contradict. Genesis 1:11 speaks of God creating vegetation, and Genesis 2:5 speaks of God not causing “farmable” vegetation to grow until after He created man."
 

Jeremy Mason

Well-Known Member
I do not see a contradiction because I believe Genesis one is a description of the six days of creation while Genesis two highlights just one of those days and the details involving the creation of man. I will let the following link answer specifically the question regarding vegetation because it is also my perspective...

"There are two primary claims of contradictions between Genesis chapters 1-2. The first is in regard to plant life. Genesis 1:11 records God creating vegetation on the third day. Genesis 2:5 states that prior to the creation of man “no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground.” So, which is it? Did God create vegetation on the third day before He created man (Genesis 1), or after He created man (Genesis 2)? The Hebrew words for “vegetation” are different in the two passages. Genesis 1:11 uses a term that refers to vegetation in general. Genesis 2:5 uses a more specific term that refers to vegetation that requires agriculture, i.e., a person to tend it, a gardener. The passages do not contradict. Genesis 1:11 speaks of God creating vegetation, and Genesis 2:5 speaks of God not causing “farmable” vegetation to grow until after He created man."

Sorry, no shrub and no plant. It is clear to me and others that this meant all vegetation. Let me guess, you also believe that there was no rain before man or vegetation as well. That the earth is thousands of years old and not billions of years old. That dinosaurs and people were contemporaries. Please tell me you are not that far off the ranch.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
But, which are "His words"? As an anthropologist who has studied religions throughout much of the world, almost all religions make such claim, so how is it that I can tell that the Bible is supposedly the "word of God" but the Bhagavad Gita is not?

Instead, my approach is to study as many as I can, and draw from that the wisdom found within each, especially focusing in on what I might find useful. It's an imperfect process, but it works for me.

Shalom

I believe unlike any other scared book the biblical scriptures verify that they are the words of the Creator God who accurately reveals future events. In Ezekiel, amazing details are given concerning how the city of Tyre was to be destroyed, as it was. The book of Daniel predicts with accuracy the coming of the four great kingdoms from Babylon, to Medo-Persia, to Greece, to Rome centuries before some of those kingdoms came on the scene, covering a time span of over 1,000 years, with details concerning how they would rule and be ended. This includes the reigns of Alexander the Great and Antiochus Epiphanies.

This gets back to my OP that the scriptures have foretold the return of Israel to the land a second time which occurred in 1948. This may not seem significant to some people, but never before in the history of the world has any other nation of people been scattered from its homeland and returned to be a nation again. Yet, this has happened with Israel twice!

This says to me that the words of this God who knows and communicated accurate future events, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and the God whose recorded words Jesus Christ quoted repeatedly are reliable words. Again, just my perspective.

Peace to you, too.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
I believe unlike any other scared book the biblical scriptures verify that they are the words of the Creator God who accurately reveals future events. In Ezekiel, amazing details are given concerning how the city of Tyre was to be destroyed, as it was. The book of Daniel predicts with accuracy the coming of the four great kingdoms from Babylon, to Medo-Persia, to Greece, to Rome centuries before some of those kingdoms came on the scene, covering a time span of over 1,000 years, with details concerning how they would rule and be ended. This includes the reigns of Alexander the Great and Antiochus Epiphanies.

This gets back to my OP that the scriptures have foretold the return of Israel to the land a second time which occurred in 1948. This may not seem significant to some people, but never before in the history of the world has any other nation of people been scattered from its homeland and returned to be a nation again. Yet, this has happened with Israel twice!

This says to me that the words of this God who knows and communicated accurate future events, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and the God whose recorded words Jesus Christ quoted repeatedly are reliable words. Again, just my perspective.

Peace to you, too.

Wait then why does Timothy say that it is inspired by God? It does not say that they are the words of God, simply they are inspired. Was that a lie?

And why is it that there is no historical evidence of a Darius of Medes?

Also the city of Tyre was not destroyed, it wasn't destroyed until Alexander the Great...and it has been rebuilt...as has Jericho....

Umm, the statue had four parts...which was the 5th?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
Such as?

The supernatural parts? Like a star falling from the heavens...? Cause that would wipe out all life on earth...cause you know...earth is smaller than even a small star.


Such as...the judgments of God upon the whole earth, the two witnesses, the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel sealed, the beast or antichrist world leader who blasphemes God and causes all on the earth to worship him and to have a mark in order to buy and sell, the battle of Armageddon, the marriage supper of the Lamb, the beast and his armies defeated, the binding of satan and the reign of Christ on the earth for 1000 years, etc...
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The book of Daniel predicts with accuracy the coming of the four great kingdoms from Babylon, to Medo-Persia, to Greece, to Rome centuries before some of those kingdoms came on the scene, covering a time span of over 1,000 years, with details concerning how they would rule and be ended. This includes the reigns of Alexander the Great and Antiochus Epiphanies.

The above are interpretations, but interpretations are like belly-buttons-- everyone has at least one.

In our Jewish tradition, interpretations are well welcomed as we've been using a commentary system for roughly 2500 years, thus no creed. Generally speaking, we recognize that even though I may have an opinion, that's all it is-- an opinion. Therefore, we're inclined to say something like "Well, I think it's more likely to be 'A', but I can see why you lean in the direction of 'B'".

This gets back to my OP that the scriptures have foretold the return of Israel to the land a second time which occurred in 1948. This may not seem significant to some people, but never before in the history of the world has any other nation of people been scattered from its homeland and returned to be a nation again. Yet, this has happened with Israel twice!

It's significant to me, and I've been there twice. Now whether it's a fulfillment of prophecy, I simply cannot say.

This says to me that the words of this God who knows and communicated accurate future events, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob, and the God whose recorded words Jesus Christ quoted repeatedly are reliable words. Again, just my perspective.

What I tend to think is reliable is the wisdom found in many of the teachings, however I do not endorse them carte blanc. But then, I'm quite a skeptic as most scientists tend to be.

Shalom
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Such as...the judgments of God upon the whole earth, the two witnesses, the 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel sealed, the beast or antichrist world leader who blasphemes God and causes all on the earth to worship him and to have a mark in order to buy and sell, the battle of Armageddon, the marriage supper of the Lamb, the beast and his armies defeated, the binding of satan and the reign of Christ on the earth for 1000 years, etc...

Right and that could not at all have been a take that to the Roman Empire...and that there isn't 1 antichrist....
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
It seems they often confuse "THE Antichrist" with the "False prophet".

I just think given what we knew about Christian persecution at the time, and all the events occurring at the time, it is far more likely that the writer of Revelations was talking about that particular time....

It's even more so likely when you look at the extremely western or whatever you want to call it point of view.

For instance in Daniels vision of the Statue people try to say that it goes Babylon, Persia, Greece, Roman and then America. Ignoring all the other huge empires that rose up during that time as well...

The Aztec empire dominated much of central America, the Inca's the Mayans, it ignores that on the eastern front you had the Mongols, Ghengis Khan was considered the greatest conqueror that has ever lived. He managed to do something that no other leader had done before, he took Afghanistan, he's the only human credited with causing an evolutionary shift in favor of animals. As cruel as he was (and he was cruel), he also practiced religious tolerance that at the time had never been seen. Yet...his empire doesn't fit the western point of view, he was a barbarian despite his empire being more successful in conquest than the ones listed above but we latch on to Rome as the peak of civilization and while that may very well be true, it ignores the huge changes going on in the world at the time.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
I take the whole Bible literally. When the plain reading of it in context makes good sense I seek no other sense. The context makes it clear when it is symbolic.

AHA!

In other words, you're NOT taking the entire Bible literally; and your statement is therefore quite incorrect!

Literally means "literally": no alternate interpretations allowed. This is NOT what you just described.

If you're relying upon context, then so sorry: that is NOT taking it literally (please review the definition of this word).

Simple as that.


Bruce
 
I see the scriptures showing the establishment and events surrounding the modern state of Israel as the greatest sign and indication of the end of the age and the soon return of Yeshua, Jesus Christ. Does anyone else see this clear fulfillment of God's prophetic word taking place right before our eyes?

"Yeshua spoke of a generation that would not see death until all these things are fulfilled, and how to determine the signs of that time. Again, lets look at what the Scriptures say about the importance of the modern nation of Israel, which is the greatest sign of the soon return of Yeshua, our Blessed Hope (Titus 2:13). Isaiah 66:8 declares Israel would be born in a day, which was fulfilled May14, 1948."

Israel: God’s Prophetic Time Clock
By Ray Smith



Greetings to you, InChrist,

Strangely ("strange" because so many Christians seem to be unaware of this,) the Bible actually says that the land of Palestine belongs not to the Israelites, but to CHRIST AND THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN HIM.

The covenant was made with "the seed of Abraham":

"In the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:" Genesis 15:18

And the NEW TESTAMENT reveals that the "seed" of Abraham is NOT the Israelites but it is CHRIST & ALL WHO BELIEVE IN HIM:

"(16)Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ...(29)And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal. 3:16, 29

If we read all of Galatians 3, we see that that land does not belong to the Israelites but to Christ & those who believe in him.

Peace & Blessings to you.
Yahyaa Waahid (my name)
 
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