That sounds like detente....woo hoo!
No winners perhaps. But maybe the losing can be minimized.
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Israel dragging USA down
- Thread starter Tellurian
- Start date
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Kathryn, I think your reasoning is fallacious as I pointed out in post #291. It doesn't matter what the 5.8 million Arab men, women, and children believe about the hypothetical ownership of the land. No matter what they believe, it's unfair to impose a military occupation and deny their right to exist.
You focus on the symmetry between unfair Israeli ambitions on the one hand, and unfair Palestinian ambitions on the other hand, and then claim this is an impasse. But critically, you ignore that the facts on the ground are not symmetric. It's not like Palestine and Israel are equally occupying and bulldozing each other's communities. The solution is two states, and there is an "impasse" only in the sense that Israel lacks the political will to stop settlement expansion, and Palestine lacks the power to stop it.
Finally: it's just absurd to suggest that Palestine is going to wipe out the Jews simply because it is recognized as a state. This paranoid fantasy is accepted as self-evident by many in the West, apparently. The fact is Palestine is powerless even to kick the Israeli military out of its own territory, much less assault and wipe out Israel. Israel's right to exist is not an excuse to deny Palestine's right to exist.
You focus on the symmetry between unfair Israeli ambitions on the one hand, and unfair Palestinian ambitions on the other hand, and then claim this is an impasse. But critically, you ignore that the facts on the ground are not symmetric. It's not like Palestine and Israel are equally occupying and bulldozing each other's communities. The solution is two states, and there is an "impasse" only in the sense that Israel lacks the political will to stop settlement expansion, and Palestine lacks the power to stop it.
Finally: it's just absurd to suggest that Palestine is going to wipe out the Jews simply because it is recognized as a state. This paranoid fantasy is accepted as self-evident by many in the West, apparently. The fact is Palestine is powerless even to kick the Israeli military out of its own territory, much less assault and wipe out Israel. Israel's right to exist is not an excuse to deny Palestine's right to exist.
I thought Israel was the player.
Shermana
Heretic
Aye, and Israel is Deep Blue.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
You think that my pointing out that the situation in Israel is what we call an "impasse" when it comes to the goals of Palestinians, other Arabs, and Jews? I think it's the perfect example of an impasse.
It DOES matter what 5.8 million Arab men, women and children believe and strive toward, especially when they are supported so heartily by other Arabs across the Middle East - as long as they stay put and don't expect to receive citizenship or equal rights in OTHER Arab countries.
No one is denying anyone's right to exist, by the way. I think it's hypocritical of Arab states to be so "morally outraged" at Israel's treatment of Palestinians when their's is certainly no better. Actually that's been my main point in this entire discussion.
Not once have I defended Israel's treatment of Palestinians.
Because it IS an impasse. You honestly can't see this? Palestinian leaders have made it very clear that they want NO Jewish state - not just PART of the Jewish state. Both parties can't both have their way.
The Palestinian cause has unilateral support from the Arab nations. Don't be coy and ignore the fact that most Arab leaders (and people) despise the very existance of the state of Israel, and that they aggressively support any action which further weakens Israel.
As I've stated before, Arab states are happy to use the Palestinians to accomplish their goals - as long as they don't expect any rights directly from other Arab states. This is not paranoia - it's reality, as I noted very clearly in my first post on this matter.
I've never claimed it was. I've never claimed that Palestinians don't have a right to their own state.
What I've said is that it's an extremely complicated mess, that Arab leaders and states are hypocritical in their "moral outrage" toward Israel, and their "support" of Palestinians, and that in a perfect world, the US would bow out of the whole region and let them all duke it out among themselves.
But if we did that, the state of Israel would be in existance about, oh, 47 days, give or take a few days. Israel and the Jews are despised and regularly undermined by their hostile neighbors.
I pity the Palestinian people, whose "best friends" are those who don't even want them.
As someone who strongly believes that the road to a just peace requires vetoing Netanyahu rather than Abbas, let me nevertheless suggest that your statement is poorly considered and seriously flawed.
No one, absolutely no one, believes that "Palestine is going to wipe out the Jews simply because it is recognized as a state." What many do believe and fear, however, is that an imposed Palestinian state will rapidly devolve into an Hamas/Hezbollah stronghold posing an existential threat to Israel. To dismiss this as "paranoid fantasy" is thoughtless at best.
When I ponder (or, more often, anguish over) the Israel-Palestine issue, an old Buck Owens song comes to mind. One can make all manner of facile statements about the wisdom and ethics of having a "Tiger By The Tail," but ...
Mr Spinkles
Mr
A fair point. Perhaps I should say, these fears are legitimate, but they have been exaggerated; and Israel's options for avoiding such a turn of events have been downplayed (stopping settlement expansion, and thus allowing a negotiated Palestinian state to proceed instead of being imposed).Jayhawker said:
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Kathryn,
I believe you did not address the substance of my post. In a sense, yes you are right, people on both sides ultimately have incompatible dreams. So if we are trying to fulfill everyone's dreams, we are at an impasse.
But if we merely want to increase peace and justice, there IS an eminently practical and realistic route forward: a negotiated settlement. The *only* obstacle for this, right now, is Israel's continued expansion of illegal settlements. That is a policy choice. Israel could remove this obstacle tomorrow *if* it chose to do so.
I believe you did not address the substance of my post. In a sense, yes you are right, people on both sides ultimately have incompatible dreams. So if we are trying to fulfill everyone's dreams, we are at an impasse.
But if we merely want to increase peace and justice, there IS an eminently practical and realistic route forward: a negotiated settlement. The *only* obstacle for this, right now, is Israel's continued expansion of illegal settlements. That is a policy choice. Israel could remove this obstacle tomorrow *if* it chose to do so.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
if only reality was that rosy.
for example, what is the importance of a Palestinian statehood, how much of it is demagogic, how much of it is realistic, how much of it is practical. or the settlements, what are the alternatives for the current construction around Jerusalem for example. if we touch these two points, it seems that both people try to achieve their dreams.
I find it remarkable that you feel qualified to make such a pronouncement.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Can you clarify Caladan? The alternative to constructing settlements is to not construct them .... Israel did precisely that for several months, then ended the experiment by resuming construction. What am I missing?
That is pathetically naive and simplistic.
Caladan
Agnostic Pantheist
Construction around Jerusalem has very few possibilities to manoeuvre with. its a geographically limited area, by ecological, political and considerations of space.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Let me know when you're ready to have a substantive discussion, Jay. I am more than happy to back up my claims by (1) comparing Western pronouncements on Israel's existential threat to the facts on the ground, (2) quoting JPost and Haaretz on how the resumption of settlement construction caused Abbas to go forward with a UN bid.
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Therefore ... ?
That would be helpful.