No he isn't. Nor could he be since the suffering servant and the righteous king(moshiach) are separate beings. It is also absurd to think one person is both victorious and non-victorious simultaneously.
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Israel (is) my son...my firstborn.
- Thread starter Redemptionsong
- Start date
I understand that you are adding to scripture, which is prohibited. Nowhere in the Christian New Testament is Shiloh identified with Jesus of Nazareth.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
My own opinion is to say that God is one, and the way to truth is through His only Son.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
The truth must lie with God, and, therefore, should be revealed to us in his word.
Psalm 118:22. 'The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner'.
Do you think Solomon was the one called to build the temple of God?
To my understanding there are parallels between the lives of David, the son of Jesse, and Christ, [Ezekiel 37:24] 'David my servant'.
David is not himself the 'Suffering Servant' but his Psalms give evidence of the one who is to suffer for his people. Psalms 22-24 provide insight into the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of the 'suffering servant'.
Why do you think Jesus quoted the first verse of Psalm 22 whilst dying on the cross?
I can see why the children of lsrael might consider themselves the 'suffering servant' given their persecution in foreign lands, but one should then continue the figure and say that the children of Israel are also the Messiah.
Then, one might ask, What is the purpose of a king Messiah if the people are already acting as king? This is especially true if the king Messiah is wholly human.
101G
Well-Known Member
GINOLJC, to all.
We beg to differ, he suffered in Natural Flesh, (eventually the Cross and DEATH), and rose the third day in Victory over sin and Death.
so, no, you have not understood. SERVENT, in Natural Death, with blood, and KING in Glorified flesh, without Flood.
this is basic bible study that you should have known.
101G.
101G
Well-Known Member
ERROR, 101G is not "ADDING" to scripture, but explaining. Them for clarity.
did you not read the definition?
Shiloh here is the Lord Jesus, the Christ.
H7886 שִׁילֹה Shiyloh (shee-lo') n/p.
1. tranquil.
2. Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah.
[from H7951]
KJV: Shiloh.
Root(s): H7951
notice definition #2.
now Jesus of Nazareth, is not he the "BRANCH? which is the Christ.
Christ the Branch. A branch is the symbol of kings descended from royal ancestors; and Christ, in respect of His human nature, is called “a shoot that will spring from the stem of Jesse, and a branch from his roots” (Isa. 11:1; Jer. 23:5; Zech. 3:8; 6:12). Christians are called branches of Christ, the Vine, with reference to their union with Him (John 15:5–6). and as Christians, we're .... kings and priest.
101G.
David was cut off from God because of his sin and suffered for his sin as shown in Psalm 22:1, for which he ultimately confessed his sin, repented, and then brought forth fruit/works in keeping with his repentance.
101G
Well-Known Member
David was not cut off, scripture. Acts 2:25 "For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:" Acts 2:26 "Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:" (Just as all of us who are in the grave). Acts 2:27 "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."Acts 2:28 "Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance."Acts 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day."
101G.
All who sin are cut off from God, as was David, who sinned and was judged, with regard to him losing his kingdom, his concubines, and his sons. Micah 3:4 & Isaiah 59:2 David sinned, was cut off from God, confessed his sin, repented, and produce good fruit, and was forgiven and reinstated. As for what some unnamed author, who was supposedly an associate of the false prophet Paul says, is of little consequence.
Micah 3:4
Then they will cry out to the Lord,
But He will not answer them.
Instead, He will hide His face from them at that time
Because they have practiced evil deeds.
Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God,
And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.
The only "sign" to be given was the sign of Jonah, which is 3 days and 3 nights in the belly of the well. The "after 2 days (2000 years), on the 3rd day, is a reference to Hosea 6:2 whereas Judah and Ephraim would be healed on the 3rd day after their period of the "LORD" going away (Hosea 5:15) until Judah and Ephraim "acknowledge their guilt" and are "healed". As everyone shall die (Jeremaih 31:30), and sin is still prevalent, I don't see your conclusion as being reality based, other than following the false prophet down the wide path to "destruction" (Matthew 7:12-15).
Ahem. I wrote that the New Testament never identified Shiloh as Jesus of Nazareth. And I am correct in doing so. In response you quoted a dictionary. A dictionary whose authority I don't accept. That just means that both you and the dictionary are adding to the New Testament. Still don't agree? Simply provide a reference from the Christian New Testament that mentions Shiloh. Not branch or some other term you mistakenly think or believe is the same thing. But an actual New Testament reference equating Shiloh with Jesus. It can't be done because there isn't one. Because (risking repetition) you are making things up out of whole cloth.
Basic Bible study would be understanding the TaNaKh which you clearly don't. You are reading the Christian "Old Testament" which is a corrupted, modified version of the real scripture, the TaNaKh. I have studied Christian theology quite extensively. I also read the TaNaKh in the original Hebrew. You, obviously, don't even understand the basics of the TaNaKh. Otherwise you would see how utterly ridiculous saying the suffering servant and the moshiach are the same. I understand it is a tenet of your faith and that you really, really, really want to believe it. But that just doesn't make it so.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
The victim of Psalm 22 cannot be king David. Look closely at the wording:
v.7. 'All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying
He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him; let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him'.
v.12-18. 'Many bulls have compassed me; strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax: it is melted in the midst of my bowels
My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have unclosed me: they have pierced [torn like a lion] my hands and my feet.
I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture'.
Nowhere in the scriptures does anything happen to David, son of Jesse, that can be likened to this description. Yet, it fits the Gospel record of the crucifixion down to the finest detail!
Then, in verse 30 of Psalm 22, it says, 'A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this'.
These final verses of Psalm 22 are clearly not about David, son of Jesse. The seed that shall serve the Lord are a generation (singular) that declare his righteousness. Yet, as you have just argued, David was not perfectly righteous.
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Genesis 49:10 provides a prophecy that relates to kings and rulers in Judah.
Did such governance of Judah not come to an end with the Romans?
101G
Well-Known Member
well that means you're cut off, and please don't say you never sinned. Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
as for Micah 3:4 & Isaiah 59:2 that's why God came in flesh to .... "REDEEM" and "SAVE" all that he has made. that's why David said, Acts 2:25 "For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:" Acts 2:26 "Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:" Acts 2:27 "Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."
understand, God, is not Just the God of the LIVING, but of the DEAD also. Listen, Romans 14:8 "For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's." Romans 14:9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living."
that's why David tongue was glad, and his flesh rest in hope.
understand something. so many are obsessed with sin, and sinning till they forget what Giod require. since we're in Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"
no might want to READ THAT AGAIN.
101G.
101G
Well-Known Member
Personal opinion?
don't have to, BECAUSE AS SAID AND SHOWM IT WAS ALREAY WRITTEN, AND NOW THE WAITE IS OVER. scripture, Matthew 16:13 "When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?" Matthew 16:14 "And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets." Matthew 16:15 "He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?" Matthew 16:16 "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God."
now one more, John 4:25 "The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things."
understand, Shiloh, an epithet of the Messiah was used by Jacob, and was know, because it is written, this is why people need to search things out.
101G
101G
Well-Known Member
Personal opinion again? I could care less if you copied the TaNaKh, and printed it in sign language, makes no difference to me.
and you're not the only one who read and understand the Original Hebrew. so no thanks to YOUS understanding.... (smile) ....
let's see, Shiloh is the "gathering" of the people correct? Isaiah 43:5 "Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;" Isaiah 43:6 "I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;" Isaiah 43:7 "Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him."
now, the Gathering under Jesus the Christ, Matthew 23:36 "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" Matthew 23:38 "Behold, your house is left unto you desolate." Matthew 23:39 "For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."
Matthew 8:11 "And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven."
Luke 13:28 "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." Luke 13:29 "And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God." Luke 13:30 "And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last."
John 1:45 "Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."
101G.
Well, David was hunted by Saul, and lived in a cave. There are similarities in that Saul hunted David, and "Saul of Taurus" hunted the disciples of the "son of man". David was also defeated and pursued by his son's army following his falling from the face of God due to his sin and was later forgiven and brought into the presence of God due to his confession, repentance, and production of good fruit.
metis
aged ecumenical anthropologist
Believe it or not, I visited that cave back in 1998, and what I found so striking is that there's a spring with a small waterfall feeding it right in front of it. It was a 118 F., so I did jump into the water.
No, it didn't. The governance of Judah is still in place. It is just in abeyance. Just like the Temple. Scripture says that both are an unending promise.
It is incredible how Christians try to use the Roman destruction to try to prop up their theology. They ignore many facts to do so. First of all the Second Temple destruction happened long after Jesus' crucifixion, about 40 years. Also the Jewish kingdom wasn't destroyed until the second century, over a hundred years after Jesus died. So Jewish kings and priests continued after Jesus.
Nor could Beresheit 49 require a continuous independence of Judah. Consider the Babylonian exile. During it there was no Jewish king reigning in Jerusalem. Yet Jesus never mentioned any contradiction between that and Beresheit 49. Because there isn't one.
In addition scripture itself tells us that there would be long periods when the Jewish people were without a king. As it says in Hosea 3:4-5, "For the Israelites will live many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred stones, without ephod or household gods. Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days." This scripture is a big problem for Christian theology. When did the long period without a king occur? It can't have been the Babylonian exile because the Jewish kingdom returned without Jesus coming. But it can't be now either since Christian claim Jesus is the reigning king. So there is no long period when the Israelites didn't have a king. Yet scripture says there would be one.
You might find this interesting, Why Doesn’t Judaism Have a King? Where is our Messiah? - Outreach Judaism