Israel: Scuffles at Western Wall as hundreds of Haredim try to block progressive prayer

[rosends]

Ok, but presumably something set forth by a secular government could be retracted by a secular government, so are you saying they are wrong about egalitarian prayer at the Western wall not being against Jewish law?

But the government has always been "secular" and established the place as conforming to orthodox standards.
If a group wanted to change this, it could pressure the government, but this is an article about a group deciding simply not to use the area designated, nor respect the other sections' rules.

As for your question about Jewish law there are a few components. One has to do with respecting any government's laws. At a minimum, their behavior violates that.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

What is the issue with the scrolls being in the women's section? If there was no grandstanding about it, would the request for the scrolls in the women's area be granted? Why does it matter that they're Reform?

It is both the grandstanding and what the movement that is pushing this stands for and doesn't stand for. You also have to take into account that most articles written on this issue are not going to report the core issues but instead the political ones.

As with anything there are "elements" of what their claim on paper that have merit BUT not from the people who are pushing it at this point.

But the bigger issue is that this is the result of the Jewish people not having a Sanhedrin/Mosaic Court in Jerusalem.

 

[JustGeorge]

It is both the grandstanding and what the movement that is pushing this stands for and doesn't stand for. You also have to take into account that most articles written on this issue are not going to report the core issues but instead the political ones.

As with anything there are "elements" of what their claim on paper that have merit BUT not from the people who are pushing it at this point.

But the bigger issue is that this is the result of the Jewish people not having a Sanhedrin/Mosaic Court in Jerusalem.

What are the core issues? What's Sanhendrin/Mosaic court, and how would it help resolve this problem?

 

[Harel13]

What are the core issues?

The core issues are:

1. What is the purpose of reading from a Torah scroll during prayer? Is this purpose relevant to women? Is saying that it is not necessarily chauvinistic?
2. Is there anything inherently special in terms of Jewish law in praying specifically by the Western Wall? If not, why make a fuss every 1st of the month (a day with special prayers)?
3. Is the women's section by the Wall more inherently special in terms of Jewish law than the section of the Wall by Robinson's Arch allocated to people who prefer to not comply to Orthodox standards of prayer?​

I am not Reform, so I do not quite understand these women's mentality. To me they seem like extremists within the Reform movement, so I'm not even sure our resident Reform members would be able to explain what's going on here. Again, to me it seems that they're grandstanding. As @rosends said, if all they wanted to do was read a Torah scroll during 1st-of-the-month prayers, then they could easily, or pretty easily do it without making a hubbub every single time. They could do it by Robinson's Arch. But then we also have a question of what importance they see in the Western Wall. To Orthodox Jews, the Wall is not more holier than your average synagogue (which has a minimal amount of holiness but is still considerably less holy than the Temple Mount itself). Historically, to my knowledge, Reform Jews have generally not expected the building of a third Temple. Which begs the question of why they want to pray specifically by an old pile of bricks? There are ruins of ancient synagogues all over Israel. Why not go to one of those? If they aren't doing this because they want some attention or enjoy causing trouble, then why are they doing this? Are they trying to force Orthodoxy to bow down to them? Who knows.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

What are the core issues?

Send me a private message and well I tell you. The last time I tried to explain it someone got offended. When you hear it you will most likely say, "Well that is simple enough?"

What's Sanhendrin/Mosaic court, and how would it help resolve this problem?

The Sanhedrin/Mosaic Court was like a Supreme Court for the Torah - it was first established to Mosheh ben-Amram (Moses) establish the Judicial system of the Israeli nation. When you look at the Tanakh all of the prophets mentioned in it were either the leaders of their generations Mosaic court or they were a part of it. The last one was disbanded due to effects of the Roman occupation.

The basis was what had been passed down and agreed to have to come from Mount Sinai. The only way to establish such a court, in a meaningful, permanent, and effective way, is for the entire Jewish people in Israel to decide that it must be re-established. Personally, and this is my personal opinion, I think such a Mosaic court will only return when the Jewish people living in Israel collectively have our backs completely against the wall.

 

[Colt]

'Hundreds of ultra-Orthodox Jews gathered at the Western Wall in Jerusalem to protest against a Jewish women’s group that holds monthly prayers there in a long-running campaign for gender equality at the site, with minor scuffles and one person arrested.

For decades the “Women of the Wall” group has campaigned for equality of worship at the wall, one of Judaism’s holiest sites. Israel’s religious institutions are dominated by the ultra-Orthodox, who are opposed to any changes at the site, where men and women pray in separate areas...

...Women of the Wall leader Anat Hoffman was at one point removed from the Western Wall plaza after attempting to bring in a small Torah scroll.'

ETA source: Scuffles at Western Wall as hundreds of Haredim try to block progressive prayer

What is the big deal over a woman possessing a sacred text at a sacred site in UO Judaism? I don't get it.

In my opinion.

What's interesting is that male and female Jews can pray together in the tunnels where the walls footings are. I saw this occur when I was in the tunnels under the city. The traditional "wailing wall" was once a sloping hillside above a valley, the Tyropoeon Valley. Herod The Great raised the valley up during his huge second temple remodeling. Under the city, next to the Temple mount are enormous barrel vaulted caves. Jews can pray and leave prayers in the crevice's there as well. The Ultra Orthodox don't bother them there.

[GALLERY=media, 9644]IMG_8681 by cOLTER posted Nov 8, 2021 at 6:52 AM[/GALLERY]

 

[Clara Tea]

'Hundreds of ultra-Orthodox Jews gathered at the Western Wall in Jerusalem to protest against a Jewish women’s group that holds monthly prayers there in a long-running campaign for gender equality at the site, with minor scuffles and one person arrested.

For decades the “Women of the Wall” group has campaigned for equality of worship at the wall, one of Judaism’s holiest sites. Israel’s religious institutions are dominated by the ultra-Orthodox, who are opposed to any changes at the site, where men and women pray in separate areas...

...Women of the Wall leader Anat Hoffman was at one point removed from the Western Wall plaza after attempting to bring in a small Torah scroll.'

ETA source: Scuffles at Western Wall as hundreds of Haredim try to block progressive prayer

What is the big deal over a woman possessing a sacred text at a sacred site in UO Judaism? I don't get it.

In my opinion.

I worry that information about Jews is from antisemitic Islamic or German sources.

The Old Testament holds that women are property, unable to talk without permission, unable to read the Torah, and unable to become rabbis.

Women in Judaism - Wikipedia

The Wikipedia website above says that the covenant bound men, but also also members of their household were bound. So, what about unmarried women? A woman can't divorce without a man's consent. A man is required to provide food, clothing, and have sex with his wife.

If the bible was written by men, not God(s), it makes sense that only men would derive power from it, and that power would extend down the generations for eternity.

To some extent, Christian women are also held back. Women must forgive their cheating husbands....again....again....and again.

 

[metis]

IMO, all too many buy into the "my way or the highway" approach, and how much damage such religious intolerance has caused over the centuries.

 

[Harel13]

IMO, all too many buy into the "my way or the highway" approach, and how much damage such religious intolerance has caused over the centuries.

Your statement may be taken as ambiguous. Who here is religiously intolerant? The Orthodox or the Women of the Wall? Or both?

 

[metis]

Your statement may be taken as ambiguous. Who here is religiously intolerant? The Orthodox or the Women of the Wall? Or both?

The Wall, which I've been at numerous times, is not owned or controlled by any group other than the state of Israel. Since all groups within Judaism view the Wall as being a landmark for all Jews including the secular and also women, I would suggest that all Jews have a right to worship there.

If women are supposedly a distraction while praying, then I would suggest that the problem isn't them unless they're interfering with others praying. Nothing stops the men from praying with women there in reality, thus the sexual division, imo, makes not one iota of sense. Why is having a secular male there not a distraction but an observant woman supposedly is?

 

[Harel13]

If women are supposedly a distraction while praying, then I would suggest that the problem isn't them unless they're interfering with others praying. Nothing stops the men from praying with women there in reality, thus the sexual division, imo, makes not one iota of sense. Why is having a secular male there not a distraction but an observant woman supposedly is?

This is not the issue at hand, so I don't know why you're bringing it up.

The Wall, which I've been at numerous times, is not owned or controlled by any group other than the state of Israel. Since all groups within Judaism view the Wall as being a landmark for all Jews including the secular and also women, I would suggest that all Jews have a right to worship there.

All do. No one is denying these women's right to do so. The issue is that the state gave the authority over the Wall to Orthodox authorities. Orthodox authorities demand a compliance with Orthodox halacha.
As you used to be Reform, perhaps you can shed some light on the matter: Why do these women care so much about the Wall? Are they waiting for the Temple?

 

[metis]

All do. No one is denying these women's right to do so. The issue is that the state gave the authority over the Wall to Orthodox authorities. Orthodox authorities demand a compliance with Orthodox halacha.

And this is the concession to that element as if other Jews don't as much matter. The Orthodox do not own the Wall.

As you used to be Reform, perhaps you can shed some light on the matter: Why do these women care so much about the Wall? Are they waiting for the Temple?

Why shouldn't they? After all, are they not Jews who have a vested interest in haShem and also the secular history of the Temple?

 

[Ehav4Ever]

And this is the concession to that element as if other Jews don't as much matter. The Orthodox do not own the Wall.

The choice of Kotel management didn't just come out of nowhere. If memory serves there were European Jewish movements who made it clear that they had no desire for Israel, let alone the Kotel or the Temple.

Why shouldn't they? After all, are they not Jews who have a vested interest in haShem and also the secular history of the Temple?

What is the secular history of the Temple you are speaking of? Where can information about that be found? Also, during the time that the Temple stood all Jews except for certain Kohanim were not allowed in various parts of the Temple Mount - are you saying that those areas should be open to all Jews also?

Also, what is the view of the Islamic authority the Waqf who control the Temple Mount? What are the Woman of the Wall's ideas about that?

 

[Harel13]

And this is the concession to that element as if other Jews don't as much matter. The Orthodox do not own the Wall.

The Orthodox were the ones who historically managed the site of the Wall. Whilst other denominations many years ago already announced that they do not care about having a Temple, the Orthodox held on. Which brings me back to the big question: What is really going on here?

Why shouldn't they? After all, are they not Jews who have a vested interest in haShem and also the secular history of the Temple?

"secular history of the Temple"? The Temple was not a secular place (and for all the problems they caused, even the Greeks and Romans recognized that). Is that really why they come to the Wall and make a lot of noise? Because it's a "secular historical monument"? Like I said previously on this thread, there are many ancient synagogues in Israel. Apparently, the Wall is merely a historical site. Why not go to a different place? What special significance do they find there? Apparently, according to you, they are not interested in having a Temple. So they're making a big mess in a place that holds only secular historical significance for them, but holds religious significance for others. So much for liberal Judaism.

 

[rosends]

My own 2 cents (early morning thoughts are always dangerous) is that the women who are pushing this are not, very often, the "liberal" Jews that reform is usually associated with. There has been a backlash within reform Judaism to reclaim ritual items and exercises and reinsert traditional elements into the identity of the reform Jew. Reclaiming prayer via an egalitarian approach to prayer (especially as it questions and undermines the monopoly of orthodoxy, especially male hegemonic orthodoxy) is just one avenue.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

My own 2 cents (early morning thoughts are always dangerous) is that the women who are pushing this are not, very often, the "liberal" Jews that reform is usually associated with. There has been a backlash within reform Judaism to reclaim ritual items and exercises and reinsert traditional elements into the identity of the reform Jew. Reclaiming prayer via an egalitarian approach to prayer (especially as it questions and undermines the monopoly of orthodoxy, especially male hegemonic orthodoxy) is just one avenue.

I agree to an extant. The following is from their web-site. After reading it, my personal view, is that it is more of a poltical thing more than anything else. One of the reasons I feel that way is the focus they place on "wear prayer shawls, pray and read from the Torah collectively and out loud at the Western Wall (Kotel) in Jerusalem, Israel."

I also can't go along with the their statements of, "The Western Wall is Judaism’s most sacred holy site and the principal symbol of Jewish peoplehood and sovereignty." That is what makes me feel that even if it is not directly related to a particular movement it seems to the result of the events that sparked some of them. There is also some places where they quote things from the Talmud that is not alligned with their positions.

 

[Harel13]

their statements of, "The Western Wall is Judaism’s most sacred holy site and the principal symbol of Jewish peoplehood and sovereignty."

Wow. What a dumb statement. I agree, it's heavily political. It's anti-Temple-Mount and anti-Temple stuff. If anything, the fact that Jews must resign to pray by the Wall is the opposite of sovereignty.

 

[metis]

What is the secular history of the Temple you are speaking of?

That should be obvious because of the importance of the structure itself in the history of eretz Israel and it's influence on governmental activities.

Also, during the time that the Temple stood all Jews except for certain Kohanim were not allowed in various parts of the Temple Mount - are you saying that those areas should be open to all Jews also?

I won't go that far.

Also, what is the view of the Islamic authority the Waqf who control the Temple Mount? What are the Woman of the Wall's ideas about that?

I do not know.

 

[metis]

The Orthodox were the ones who historically managed the site of the Wall. Whilst other denominations many years ago already announced that they do not care about having a Temple, the Orthodox held on. Which brings me back to the big question: What is really going on here?

I have long been against discrimination against different races, nationalities, religions & religious groups, and women. If that's a fault I have, I embrace it.

However, I obviously recognize that I am just one person living in my own little area of the world, so I'm not the "final answer" on this-- but I do have opinions and I believe the right to express them. If that's a "sin", so be it.

So they're making a big mess in a place that holds only secular historical significance for them, but holds religious significance for others. So much for liberal Judaism.

No one is stopping you from praying at the Wall, and slams against another branch is so utterly pathetic. Jews historically suffered much disrimination, and yet we see all so many on the right who simply have no respect for other Jews whom also believe in haShem. What a shame and what a sham, imo.

There's more to this, but I'm done as I have no respect for religious bigotry regardless as to whom does it.

 

[Ehav4Ever]

That should be obvious because of the importance of the structure itself in the history of eretz Israel and it's influence on governmental activities.

Pardon my ignorance, but I don't understand what you mean by the term "secular history of the Temple." Do you mean, a) when the Temple was a secular institution, b) a history of the Temple as written by secular scholars, or c) when the Hellonist were in charge? Given that there have been governments of Eretz Yisrael who did not see a value in actually having a Temple or even when the northern Government of Yisrael built their own in a completely different location, disassociating themselves with the one in Jerusalem, I am not sure I understand what you mean by the statement.

I won't go that far.

If you don't mind me asking, why not? Large sectors of the Temple were male Kohanim only. The work of the Qorbonot were also male Kohanim only. The Kohen HaGadol was male Kohen only with a number of marriage restrictions. Wouldn't that lend itself to the same critque as the Western Wall?