israel "The Holy Land" >> religion or politics?

[TashaN]

I started a thread before about Gaza and the pullout then i forgot about it then i found out after a while that everybody was throwing out stones to the other which is wrong.

I hate it when the thread turn out to be like a chatting room.


Introduction


The struggle between the Israelis and the Palestinians is one of the most enduring and explosive of all the world's conflicts.

It has its roots in the historic claim to the land which lies between the eastern shores of the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan river.

For the Palestinians the last 100 years have brought colonisation, expulsion and military occupation, followed by a long and difficult search for self-determination and for coexistence with the nation they hold responsible for their suffering and loss.

For the Jewish people of Israel, the return to the land of their forefathers after centuries of persecution around the world has not brought peace or security. They have faced many crises as their neighbours have sought to wipe their country off the map.
BBC News Online highlights some of the key dates of recent Middle East history and looks back at the origins and development of the Arab-Israeli conflict.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/timeline/


and i hope that people will stop posting ridiculous posts and hatered arguments such as:
Here's my constructive idea: stop firing rockets into Israel.

I don't want any current issues posted in here because the situation is so complicated there and may God help them all to mintain peace among themselves.

I just want to know do Israel people have the right to stay there or not? if they the right so then ...

That right is based on religious myth or on just politics?

as i know so far that Jews, Christians and Muslims were living there since ages all together in peace even though many nations and countries colonized that area but the situation blow up when they were trying to make one country there called Israel and deny the right for arabs overthere.

If it's religious so is that means if i have for example somthing talking about colonizing USA in my religious sources (which is not there ofcourse ) so do i have the right do use force to colonize USA ? "assuming USA as a weak country "

(( people don't stuck to my example because it just an EXAMPLE )) to make you think.

Finally, This thread aim only to see the historical view of this matter but please again not the current situation.

 

[TashaN]

Ancient times



The land that now encompasses Israel and the Palestinian territories has been conquered and reconquered throughout history.

Details of the ancient Israelite states are sketchy, derived for the most part from the first books of the Bible and classical history. Some of the key events include:

Bibicical times 1250 BC: Israelites began to conquer and settle the land of Canaan on the eastern Mediterranean coast.
961-922 BC: Reign of King Solomon and construction of the Temple in Jerusalem. Solomon's reign was followed by the division of the land into two kingdoms.
<LI>586 BC: The southern kingdom, Judah, was conquered by the Babylonians, who drove its people, the Jews, into exile and destroyed Solomon's Temple. After 70 years the Jews began to return and Jerusalem and the temple were gradually rebuilt. Classical period

333 BC: Alexander the Great's conquest brought the area under Greek rule.
165 BC: A revolt in Judea established the last independent Jewish state of ancient times.
63 BC: The Jewish state, Judea, was incorporated into the Roman province of Palestine
70 AD: A revolt against Roman rule was put down by the Emperor Titus and the Second Temple was destroyed. This marks the beginning of the Jewish Diaspora, or dispersion.
118-138 AD: During the Roman Emperor Hadrian's rule, Jews were initially allowed to return to Jerusalem, but - after another Jewish revolt in 133 - the city was completely destroyed and its people banished and sold into slavery.
638 AD: Conquest by Arab Muslims ended Byzantine rule (the successor to Roman rule in the East). The second caliph of Islam, Omar, built a mosque at the site of what is now the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem in the early years of the 8th Century. Apart from the age of the Crusaders (1099-1187), the region remained under Muslim rule until the fall of the Ottoman Empire in the 20th Century.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/timeline/1century.stm


First Zionist Congress


The First Zionist Congress met in Basle, Switzerland, to discuss the ideas set out in Theodor Herzl's 1896 book Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State). Herzl, a Jewish journalist and writer living in Vienna, wanted Jews to have their own state - primarily as a response to European anti-Semitism.

The Congress issued the Basle Programme to establish a "home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured by public law" and set up the World Zionist Organisation to work for that end. A few Zionist immigrants had already started arriving in the area before 1897. By 1903 there were some 25,000 of them, mostly from Eastern Europe. They lived alongside about half a million Arab residents in what was then part of the Turkish Ottoman Empire. A second wave of about 40,000 immigrants arrived in the region between 1904 and 1914.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/israel_and_palestinians/timeline/1897.stm

now it's your turn lovely members of RF to show your fair opnions about this issue.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... i hope that people will stop posting ridiculous posts and hatered arguments such as:
Here's my constructive idea: stop firing rockets into Israel.

It takes a strangely bigoted perversion to categorize "stop firing rockets into Israel" as "ridiculous posts and hatered arguments".

 

[Darkdale]

It takes a strangely bigoted perversion to categorize "stop firing rockets into Israel" as "ridiculous posts and hatered arguments".

That's putting it very, very politely.

 

[TashaN]

It takes a strangely bigoted perversion to categorize "stop firing rockets into Israel" as "ridiculous posts and hatered arguments".

I don't know how to describe it for you again but for example if you were from palstien and israel troops and planes destroy your house, killing your family so you will think that they are terrorists right?

At the same time when this palstinian fire a rocket or bomb a buliding so israelians will see it as a terrorist, isn't it?

So, it is ridiculous to see the world through your eyes only and i hope you can understand the purpose of this thread because you left everything and you started sticking to this statment but again if you think my statment was wrong so please just move on and go for the purpose of thread not just to fulfill your thirsty to debate in anything without getting any benefit except wasting time.

I'm a human being and i made mistakes and the wise one who go for the positive view rather than the negative one.

 

[TashaN]

No one interested

everybody here is a Jew or what?

 

[jonny]

No one interested

everybody here is a Jew or what?

I can't speak for everyone but I am sick of hearing about Israel and Palestine fighting. I could care less about it (and that's putting my feelings on the subject lightly). I don't think the violence will end until they've killed themselves off. Neither group wants peace with the other - they just want them dead.

 

[TashaN]

I can't speak for everyone but I am sick of hearing about Israel and Palestine fighting. I could care less about it (and that's putting my feelings on the subject lightly). I don't think the violence will end until they've killed themselves off. Neither group wants peace with the other - they just want them dead.

I think all of you are wise enough to know that i was looking forward to focus in the historical facts only and to ignore the currecnt situation because we can't solve it by ourselves.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Most people just pretend that this is a religious issue, and ignore the political force of current behind it. When British knew that with the prevailing nationalistic feeling during that time, it is no longer possible to maintain the British Umpire (No setting sun?) anymore without doing something. Why is it so important to do something? It is the black gold in the middle east. The West realized that if Middle East countries become united, and advanced scientifically and making use of the natural resources of oil there, that region will emerged as the new world power. How to prevent this from happening? Divide and Rule, of course. Creat conflict of interest among those country there, let Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan kill each other, let Syria, Turkey, Egypt quarell. That may not be enough. The best is to plant something there that can cause trouble for them. What can that be? Huh, we are having problem with the Jews at our country, now that there is a strong religious movement of a group of Jews wanting to go back and build a nation of Israel, let us help them to do it, and let us let them drive the Palestinians out, and creat hatred among the Jews and the Palestinian, then the Jews would have forgotten about the persecution we 'Christians' have been doing unto them for so long. There in a nutshell, that is the reason behind the conflict of Israel and Palestinian. It is the smart 'Christians' that shifted the blame of being the persecutor of Jews, and turned into the protector of Jews, and let the Jews and Arabs have it at one another throat. They will be so busy at it, that they will have no time to develop their science and technology and become powerful nations, and we can continue to pump the black gold out until there is nothing left for them.
This is the conspiracy theory of the Oil
http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/MiddleEast.asp (Highly Recommended!)
Oil empire.
http://www.oilempire.us/
Or related Chomsky view:
http://www.chomsky.info/articles.htm

 

[TashaN]

Thanks brother greatcalgarian for the information.

I guess many people decided to close thier eyes from the truth and when the problem appeared to harm thier allies so they will definitely freaked out and scream in order to defend them but there are no right for second level and uncivilied nation "in thier eyes" to live in peace.

 

[joeboonda]

I believe it is a religious issue. God promised in the Bible, that although the Jewish people would be scatterred and the temple destroyed, a remnant would return in the end days and re-establish the nation of Israel. It also says Jerusalem would be a 'cup of trembling' to the nations, and that this time, anyone who would come against Israel would be defeated, that Israel will forever remain. It says the nations will be judged according to how they treat Israel, well, they have my support. And conducting military excercises against the exact people you know sent a kid with a bomb strapped to him to a public mall is not terrorism, the suicide bomber is the terrorist. All who believe they will go to heaven if they suicide bomb, you have been decieved. Long live Israel.

 

[Fluffy]

No one interested

everybody here is a Jew or what?

Why would Jews not be interested in this issue :S?

 

[time_spender]

joeboonda:

I believe it is a religious issue. God promised in the Bible, that although the Jewish people would be scatterred and the temple destroyed, a remnant would return in the end days and re-establish the nation of Israel

I believe its a religious issue too! Allah promised in the QUran that Jews will be thrown out after they have ruled and killed many ppl(when the third step happens)...so to me,Israel is a sign that tells:"The end is near"!!

 

[jewscout]

joeboonda:
I believe its a religious issue too! Allah promised in the QUran that Jews will be thrown out after they have ruled and killed many ppl(when the third step happens)...so to me,Israel is a sign that tells:"The end is near"!!

your right...with the ingathering of the exiles the end is near...
Moshiach is coming

are you ready?:jam:

 

[Nehustan]

I actually have multiple views on this subject, and as the historicity of the issue was spoken of first I will address this. There has been a historical protection of Ahl Al Kitab (people of the book) as Ahl Al Dhimmi (people of the treaty) since the writing of the constitution of Medinah in Al-Yathrib in the very earliest days of the Islamic nation. Of course people will cite that during that period there has been attacks within the Islamic nation, I won't delineate them here, I'm sure that a Judaic member can. These can be denied or confirmed, but let us not think that this was solely on a religious basis. For example can we consider intertribal conflict in the history of the Ummah (nation) to be religious in nature when we consider it between muslims. I'm not even talking about conflicts such as between the present ones between Sunni asnd Shiah, but ones throughout the last 1400 odd years based on power and its retention/distribution, land and its retention/distribution, even water and its retention and distribution. In short and for want of a better term....politics. In actuality even the 'split' between the sunni and Shia can be dated back to before the time of Muhammad and thus is an argument that predates Islam, and thus could be argued to have no basis in Islam, I am speaking of the intertribal rivalry between the minor houses of Hashim and Ummay in the Quraish. Returning to what is often referred to as 'Dhimmitude' which is oft quoted as an undesireable state, critics often state that just how free are the 'dhimmi' if they have to pay a tax to ensure their rights to their way of life and to follow their religion. This taken in isolation will seem to people of little knowledge of Islam to be unfair, if you have to pay a tax to follow your religion just how free are you????? I think that the answe is the issue of zakat (welfare contribution), again an issue from the foundation of the state at Medinah. Here a basic tennet of Islam was the paying of a tax by Mulsims to the state in a prototypical welfare system, which was compulsory for muslims to pay. It is then in this context that the dhimmi tax must be viewed, and that rather than it being an unfair contribution from the 'dhimmi' (who were not obliged to pay the zakat tax levied upon 'muslims') it seems more the normal working of a state. I mean are the Hebrews in the West really anything other than dhimmi in the 'European Caliphate'???? (another question entirely which I will happily discuss in another thread!!!!)

I think that the major problems in the region are the fault of the powers who placed the countries of the Levant under mandate post the defeat of the ottomans in WWI. Whether is be in Bilad As Shams (Palestine, Jordan, Syria/Lebanon), 'Mesopotmia' (Iraq), or even the establishment of a kingdom in Al Hijaz (KSA). Politically the Europeans have placed what may be called 'hollow categories upon the people of the peninsula, that has them identifying themsleves with identities that have no place in recent history. It could be argued, I suppose' that having inter-national rivalries is better than having intertribal rivalries, but I'm not sure that I see the benefit myself. In this matter my ancestors are directly culpabale being that I am British, but more specifically the Rothschild family are intermarried with my maternal family, and it was to Lord Rothschild that Balfour sent his 'declaration'. Having such a varied background, being married to a Palestinian, and being raised as a Christian myself, you can imagine that I have considered the issues surrounding 'the holy land', and although this page was to consider the historicity of the issue, I think I will move on to present times and claims on the right to the land, messiahs etc.

The Bani Israel lay claim to this land as a promise from god as his chosen people, and as far as I can see this is the claim on the land taken from the cannanites. At this time the Bani Israel were guided by the prophet Moses, who lead them upto the 'promised land' whereupon they entered. It is quite common to hear Palestinians consider themself as descendants of these people and claim a right to the land that predates the arrival of the Hebrews. However in the context of the Quran, this is a false claim. The Quran claims that the Hebrews were rightly guided at the time and that this land was given to them by God, and that the Canaanites with thie gods such as Moloch/Baal or subsequently the Philistines with Dagon did not worship Eloah/Allah. Thus the arabs today if they are Muslims are doing themself a dis-service to quote their pagan roots in a pseudo religious context. This has more of a place in Arab nationalism and the mentioned 'hollow categories' placed upon them during the mandate, than it does in Islam and as people of Eloah/Allah. The argument from an Islamic perspective is that at the time of Moses the Hebrews were rightly guided by a prophet who taught them of the One God, Eloah/Ain Soph Aur, and thus at that time triumphed in that land. However time has moved on, since those time Jehesuah has come as the Messiach to the Hebrews and a light to the Gentiles/Goyem (even tho' subsequently his 'faith' has been corrupted by Hellenisation/Romaistaion etc.), and Muhammad has come to bring all the peoples of the planet to the worship of Eloah/Allah. Thus as Muslims, the Palestinians claim to live anywhere rests with the establishment of Islam, and with Muhammad, not with any other claim in history.

Surely the messiach has been promised, and is awaited, by all the Abrahamic faiths (and I begrudgingly include what is called 'Christinaity in this). How do I think we will know who is the true messiach. Well I would wager he will be acceptable to all three faiths. That will be a pretty tall order for anyone to achieve, some would think impossible, but I will delineate how I will regognise him when he comes if it is in my lifetime. His message will be simple, One God, God of all people on this world and of any other world that may exists. To my mind the Quran promises that those who maintain their covenant with Eloah/Allah, then he will maintain his covenant with them, so to me this is a promise to the believing Jews, and the messiach will not turn his back on these people as it would mean that Eloah is breaking his covenenant which he clearly will not do, and the Hebrews will have their place in a world that recognises the soveriegnty of Eloah/Allah over all peoples, and their own vice-regency over themselves. He will teach the Christians the same faith taught 2000 years ago in the context of his message to the Hebrew people, and the synergistic additions will fall away (i.e christianity). He will recognise the message of Eloah/Allah revealed to Mohammad as having roots in the true faith established in the penisula with Abraham. If one returns solely to lead God's 'only people', i.e. the Hebrews, or solely the 'Christians' with talk of 'only son of God', resurrection, or mixed solar rites, the chances are they are not the messiach. As to Muslims, many of the folowers do not follow Islam as it was taught by Muhammad (myself included). We are told to be patient, and that although 'they have their plans' so does Eloah/Allah, this should be the faith of the Muslims. For God is surely One, not God of this people or that, but God of all people, and if one part of the land is 'holy' then so is all his creation.

 

[Pardus]

I have to say i really dislike the zionist movement, i think control of holy land should be in neutral and secular hands.

Expecially when such holy land is considered holy by 3 different denominations.

 

[greatcalgarian]

I have to say i really dislike the zionist movement, i think control of holy land should be in neutral and secular hands.

Expecially when such holy land is considered holy by 3 different denominations.

Zionist movement is a political force utilizing and hitchhiking the religious doctrine.

In the same way, Palestinian movement is unfortunately being branded as Islamic terrorism.

Hence the impossibility of settling the middle east issue.

The original British/United Nation proposal is to set aside Jurusalam as a 'neutral' ground administered by perhaps some world appointed 'secular hands'. Unfortunately, the Zionist during that time outsmarted everyone, including the British, and successfully established the present Israel.

 

[jewscout]

In the same way, Palestinian movement is unfortunately being branded as Islamic terrorism.

what do you call a group of people screaming Islamic slogans and then following it up for a call for the eradication of Israel and Jews?

 

[Nehustan]

Angry?

(P.S. I am of course taking into for granted that you're not telling a joke in the vein of
'I say I say I say, what do you call a group of people screaming Islamic slogans and then following it up for a call for the eradication of Israel and Jews'
'I don't know, what do you call a group of people screaming Islamic slogans and then following it up for a call for the eradication of Israel and Jews?')

 

[jewscout]

Angry?

(P.S. I am of course taking into for granted that you're not telling a joke in the vein of
'I say I say I say, what do you call a group of people screaming Islamic slogans and then following it up for a call for the eradication of Israel and Jews'
'I don't know, what do you call a group of people screaming Islamic slogans and then following it up for a call for the eradication of Israel and Jews?')

i'm saying lets call Hamas and Islamic Jihad and groups like them in the Palestinian controlled territories what they are, terrorists.

i also just wanted to point out...

The original British/United Nation proposal is to set aside Jurusalam as a 'neutral' ground administered by perhaps some world appointed 'secular hands'. Unfortunately, the Zionist during that time outsmarted everyone, including the British, and successfully established the present Israel.

the Zionists didn't outsmart anyone. The Arab world rejected that UN proposal and any proposal giving land to the Jewish Settlers in the region of modern day Israel.
Do not pretend that the Arab leadership and the leadership of the PA, especially the late Arafat, had nothing to do w/ the present situation in the region as if it was all the big bad zionist's falt.

http://www.mideastweb.org/181.htm