israel "The Holy Land" >> religion or politics?

[Jayhawker Soule]

Much the same can obviously be said about Nehustan.

 

[sindbad5]

Good work ("The Truth" and "greatcalgarian")

The conflect between the zionists state and the arabs in the mideast has many faces, regarding every side:
1- zionists
zionism is a blend of national and political ideas strived hard to search on
some religious and hestorical myths to support and reason its actions, which involves
migrating to palestine and then transfering the local inhabitants(muslims and chrestinas) either peacefully or by force.

2- non-zionists jews
some of them really belived in these myths about returning to the holly land,
and others had to migrate for many reasons byond the above mentioned myths;
economical, do anybody remember the propaganda that says "land without people and people without land" ?
racism, as happned in europe before, during, and after the WWII.
some other jews oppose the establishment of israel because it will increase the sufferance of jews and also thier cousins "the arabs"
lots of jew prefer no to mograte to palestine at all and they gone to the south america and usa.
about half of the jews said they will not leave thier homes and stayed in thier countries.


3- arabs people
they found themselves going from biritish to jewish colonialism,
they never accepted the twisted claims of zionism, you know why? simply
because no nation on earth could have such tolerance to accept being quicked off from thier lands
for arabs the truth is very clear and straightforward:
jews never have the right to migrate from thier countries in eruope to occupy and kill thousands based on some myths found in thier old books.
arabs says: no more phelosiphy, it's our lands, one day it will return to us.

4- arab rulers
since most of them are dectators and corrupted regimes, they welcomed the external dispute with israel to fully control
thier people by claiming "no voice raises above the voice of war".
after a series clashs, they realized they can't win with weak countries, especially when usa choose to become a face of a coin and israel the other face.
and instead of building a modern strong states, they hurry to usa and israel to stop the state of warfare,
and also to seek usa support to strenthen thier regimes (especially after USSR collapsing).

5- westren people
either have no idea about what's going on thier, or affected by the zionists tremendous propropaganda machine.

6- westren rulers
There are an old principle in the westren politics, mentioning it will help why israel exists now;
west should prevent -by any means- establishing a superpower in the mideast region.
this "-by any means-" involves, besides many other means, geopolitical separation by planting a forieg hostile colonial state in palestine.
and so, the zionists play it good when they make benefits from the westren powers interests in the region.

So, what's the solution (i mean the fair one not what zionists want to impose on the victims)?
i don't know, maybe it's time for israel leave out these myths and accept palestinians as an equal citizens on a non-jewish state.

 

[jewscout]

Of course I could use Talmudic sources about Goyem, but do I really want to read them?????

Yes why quote talumidc sources taken out of the context of the time they were written and ignore the fact that they are not taught within mainstream Judaism.

Well I guess if the Ashkansim had stayed in Europe, Sephardim in N.Africa and Spain (maybe southern France) and the Arabic/Oriental Jews in the Levant and the Hijaz, without the Zionist Regime there wouldn't be a problem, maybe they could have used their summer breaks to visit Herod's Temple.

yes because the place of a jew is under the heal of another nation where they are open to persecution, forced coversion, pogroms, and genocide like they rightfully deserve

 

[jewscout]

some of them really belived in these myths about returning to the holly land...

i suppose that you would consider the Torah as myth then?

 

[jewscout]

So, what's the solution (i mean the fair one not what zionists want to impose on the victims)?
i don't know, maybe it's time for israel leave out these myths and accept palestinians as an equal citizens on a non-jewish state.

lets not beat around the bush...you mean a Muslim nation...because the muslim nations of today are extremely hospitable to the Jewish people, right?:banghead3
the arab people can do have equal rights in the State of Israel. I do not promise a utopia but it is far better than the treatment of jews in the arab world.

 

[Nehustan]

Much the same can obviously be said about Nehustan.

Can you possibly state that more clearly adding the phrases 'out of context' and 'ant-semetic' in any measure you deem fitting to your agenda, and according to personal taste, maybe even throw in a 'Self hating jew' appellation for good measure (even though like I said I prefer 'Zabulon')...but then like the axiom goes 'heard it all before'.

:jiggy:​

 

[Nehustan]

lets not beat around the bush...you mean a Muslim nation...because the muslim nations of today are extremely hospitable to the Jewish people, right?:banghead3
the arab people can do have equal rights in the State of Israel. I do not promise a utopia but it is far better than the treatment of jews in the arab world.

And whose fault is that exactly????? Given as quoted earlier the right of return granted to the Jews by the Ottomans, its not suprising that the Muslims (and Christians, let's not forget the native Christians) are....hmmm what word to use....Angry????

 

[michel]

*************************Mod Post*************************​

Cool it, ladies and gentlemen.​

 

[jewscout]

i will take leave of this thread for now, reinforced with the belief that antizionism is heavily rooted in antisemetism

and when i make my aliyah, summer of 07, may The Holy One, Blessed Be He, see that i do it out of trust in Him, not in men.

next year in Jerusalem!Knockout

 

[Nehustan]

How dissapointing 'teacher', I was expecting a mark. Never mind was never into rabbinical judaism so I guess I don't need a Rabbi. By the way, when I purchase the Talmud (I've found a copy of 30 Volumes in English on a CDRom with a CDRom of the Zohar too, combined for quite a decent price on Amazon), and I then quote relevant quotes to this conversation, do not say 'that's out of context' (quotes are by NATURE out of context, that's why they are quotes), that I am misrepresenting, or that this is a minority opinion that isn't held by all.

Yes why quote talumidc sources taken out of the context of the time they were written and ignore the fact that they are not taught within mainstream Judaism.

Outstanding Jewscout, The thirty volumes aren't even despatched yet, but I mean why wait to criticise till I actually quote something Talmudic out of context, just do it anyway....can you maybe throw in a 'anti-semite' in there just for good measure...

:bounce​

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EDIT​

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i will take leave of this thread for now, reinforced with the belief that antizionism is heavily rooted in antisemetism

Ahh there it is, you manage to squeeze in the anti-semite while I wasn't looking :jiggy:

As regarding anti-semitism to anti-zionism, I guess the main way that would be strictly true it would need all 'hebrew' semites to be zionist, which is quite plainly not true. In actuality many of the leaders of the anti zionist movement, at least in the UK are....come on three guesses???? Jewish. But I guess the appellation 'self hating jew' is applied to them far more often than to me.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... why wait to criticise till I actually quote something Talmudic out of context, just do it anyway....can you maybe throw in a 'anti-semite' in there just for good measure...

Precisely. The same antisemitic arguments are regurgitated over and over again, and nothing in your stream of posts would suggest anything different from you.

 

[NuGnostic]

Personnally I'm amazed at the patience of the Palestinians and Arabs and Muslims,in suffering the state of Israel.I have no dislike for Jews,but the very excistence of the state of Israel is a great political crime against the arabs,like the welsh taking back England after 1500 years,or the English taking back New England.

 

[greatcalgarian]

Personnally I'm amazed at the patience of the Palestinians and Arabs and Muslims,in suffering the state of Israel.I have no dislike for Jews,but the very excistence of the state of Israel is a great political crime against the arabs,like the welsh taking back England after 1500 years,or the English taking back New England.

Frubals to you, what an interesting analogy. I always quote the more recent case, like the
American Natives reclaim Toronto or New York or Washington, if they can find their own holy scripture to justify their claim:biglaugh:

 

[greatcalgarian]

what do you call a group of people screaming Islamic slogans and then following it up for a call for the eradication of Israel and Jews?

a group of people screaming Islamic slogans
a call for the eradication of Israel and Jews

These are western propaganda, especially in the choice of words

 

[greatcalgarian]

Well said!:clap

Not sure why you applause, didn't you read Nehustan reply?

 

[greatcalgarian]

lets not beat around the bush...you mean a Muslim nation...because the muslim nations of today are extremely hospitable to the Jewish people, right?:banghead3
the arab people can do have equal rights in the State of Israel. I do not promise a utopia but it is far better than the treatment of jews in the arab world.

A secular government, based on democratic principle of equal right for all past and present residence of Israel/Palestinian prior to British took over of the Palestinian. Allow all displaced palestinians or arabs the freedom to move back to Israel/Palestinian, and freely elect a government that stand both for the Jews and Arabs right to live a peaceful life there. Ask Egypt, Iraq, Syria etc other Arab nations to shut up, and let the Jews and Palestinian people determine their own future.

True Muslims are peace loving people. Only Muslims being politicized have a bone to pick and is causing all the present problem, and these Muslims have played into the hand of Western politician by being successfully being painted by them as 'terrorist', 'extremist' etc. Very unfortunate indeed.

 

[Deut 13:1]

(P.S. despite my dislike for the oral tradition being written I have thought of buying a copy of the 'Talmud', maybe now would be a good time to have a look for a copy...give it a proper read for future reference)

Well, when you do, we can chat, until then, I'd appreciate it if you didn't hypothesize what the Talmud says without opening one book.

I'll be sure to show the same respect with your Qu'ran. *by this I mean not guessing what it says without bothering to open it*

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

True Muslims are peace loving people.

And the "true Muslim" is defined/identified how?

 

[greatcalgarian]

And the "true Muslim" is defined/identified how?

Just the same as defined for a 'true Christian'

Look at those Muslim leaders in NY that came out to speak, together with other Christian leaders after 9/11 for example.

 

[Nehustan]

Well, when you do, we can chat, until then, I'd appreciate it if you didn't hypothesize what the Talmud says without opening one book.

I'll be sure to show the same respect with your Qu'ran. *by this I mean not guessing what it says without bothering to open it*

I have no interest in Jewish Literature (especially one that for some reason left the oral 'arena') other than as a method of investigation of my own ancestors, and as a way of understanding the basis of my faith, which is built on the foundation of the prophets from the Chaldean/Hebrew, to the Arabic. I will however be buying the large volume of the Talmud to have a comprehensive reference, and I figure I should buy the Zohar from the same source to read the 'Jewish' versions, as to dicussing it, I doubt I will on here, I would be more likley to track down a jewish friend to discuss it with in person, liking the oral tradition. I recall the last time I saw some of my Jewish friends from my home town when they came down to London, they went to great lengths to expound how while being Jewish they were not Zionist. I will however maintain the right to quote rabbinical commentary, even though it will be cited as 'out of context' or as 'misrepresentative' or using text as 'anti-semetic'. Just because many people are apologists for things that have been plainly be a theme for many years does not negate that they were (and I'd argue are) commonplace. If your oral tradition had remained just that no one would be any wiser, it would all be guesses. The reason I was unwilling to quote the sources on the net initially (if you remember I said I didn't want to read them!!!!) was because they are obviously biased, and selected. I may well select the very same parts, but the difference is I will have selected them.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/9568351140/ref=wl_it_dp/104-0235613-7152742?%5Fencoding=UTF8&colid=1WDZROESULPJ2&coliid=I3SI5F2AUC0E54&v=glance&n=283155

that is what I will be buying seems very cheap to me, unfortunately (or not) as they are in digitial format I shall not be opening any pages/books as you requested, it will be a case of 'point & click'.

(P.S. Actually just found a copy of The Babylonian Talmud in selection / edited and translated from the original Hebrew and Aramaic by Leo Auerbach, 1944 I can borrow so I may go and get it, shame its a selection.)

(P.P.S. Was this thread reopened when people had calmed down enough to engage in reasonable debate, rather than losing control and hurling insults? Very kind of you to shut it down so they could gather their thoughts and calm down. We wouldn't want people making a propaganda 'faux pas' now would we, especially when 'we' control the medium.)