Israel, the one that struggles with God?

[Rainbow Mage]

What exactly does that entail, that Israel is "he who struggles with God?" Does this entail that the nation of Israel, the Jews, somehow struggle with god?

 

[Caladan]

The other major religions teach their adherents that they are to submit to their God. prostate before him if you will. the Hebrew Bible taught the Israelites a different philosophy. the highest Israelite prophets, leaders, and liberators also debated fiercely with their God, they fought against God with whatever they had for demanding from them to do the impossible, through this struggle these people have succeeded to achieve the impossible. I can tell you that most of them also met a bitter end after achieving their goal.

 

[ydavod]

I was taught Jacob and Israel are two levels in the service of G-d, both are necessary and realized at different times in every Jews life.
with Jacob ,there is still a struggle with one’s evil inclinations,or materal wants and needs like we do during the week days but with Israel like on Shabbat, there is still a hint of struggle which is why Israel was every now and then called Jacob after his name change and why it says Israel is "he who struggles with God"

 

[Rainbow Mage]

"kicks can

 

[Levite]

What exactly does that entail, that Israel is "he who struggles with God?" Does this entail that the nation of Israel, the Jews, somehow struggle with god?

I think it does. The answer I would want to give is that while we have historically believed that we have a fair idea of what God wishes from us (commandments, etc.), we struggle constantly to refine that idea, to understand it better, and to reinterpret it when necessary in order to come closer to what seems like the way God would wish us to be.

And at the same time, no observant Jew I have ever met does not struggle with his or her relationship to the mitzvot. We all have certain mitzvot that we do more, or better, or feel are more satisfying, than others. And we all have certain mitzvot that we dislike, or do not understand, or are impatient with, or feel unmoved or unmotivated by; or some that we personally struggle with trying to do more; or different interpretations of how to observe that we go back and forth with. That is also a kind of struggle with God.

And we question, and are encouraged to question. To constantly re-examine the Torah and our other teachings, to wrestle with the questions of theodicy that any thinking person of faith necessarily wrestles with, to question how our tradition fits into modernity, and how modernity fits into our tradition. All of this comes under the heading of wrestling with God.

Because I think all our greatest rabbis would have agreed that God does not want us to stop thinking, or just be mindless automatons of observance: one has to work at one's relationship with God, in some ways much like one has to work at any relationship, only more so. And the entire enterprise of Rabbinic Judaism is in some measure founded on the notion that we have the authority given to us to seek for the best way in which to follow the path God has set for us, and to decide what that path truly means-- in that sense, Torah (the embodiment of covenant) is a cooperative venture between God and humanity, and such ventures are seldom clear, obvious, and without confusion or dispute.

I think it is a much healthier way to approach religion than blind faith, refusal or prohibition of questioning, pat answers, or absolutist inflexibility.

 

[Rainy]

Jeremiah 4 is an interesting read on this subject.

 

[Levite]

Jeremiah 4 is an interesting read on this subject.

I guess maybe...if one read it in tandem with something that balanced it out. Maybe like Isaiah 54 or something....

 

[Caladan]

one has to work at one's relationship with God, in some ways much like one has to work at any relationship, only more so.

That is very well said. in many Biblical and Judaic metaphors. God and his people Israel are described as allied in a relationship of a man and a woman. or the man and his bride. the bride would cheat on her husband. would go to the gods of the land. the man would rage. they would fight together. defeat their enemies together. physically beat each other. there is no other way. because this is life. we all struggle. all serious married couples fight. and if they want to keep their relationship as strong as it is. they will fight more. if they don't, it means they have simply given up on each other. the relationship of God with his people Israel is very much the same and alive and vivid in the Hebrew Bible in illustrating this reality.

 

[Levite]

That is very well said. in many Biblical and Judaic metaphors. God and his people Israel are described as allied in a relationship of a man and a woman. or the man and his bride. the bride would cheat on her husband. would go to the gods of the land. the man would rage. they would fight together. defeat their enemies together. physically beat each other. there is no other way. because this is life. we all struggle. all serious married couples fight. and if they want to keep their relationship as strong as it is. they will fight more. if they don't, it means they have simply given up on each other. the relationship of God with his people Israel is very much alive and vivid in the Hebrew Bible.

I've always loved the imagery in the Prophets, and its less violent but equally passionate literary offspring in the poems and prayers of the medieval and Renaissance payatanim (liturgical poets), like Yehudah Halevi, Avraham and Moshe Ibn Ezra, Shlomo Alkabetz, and Yisrael Najara, who portray the relationship between God and Israel as that of lovers who may be separated or apart, but remain connected, and are destined always to reunite. Or especially, something like Rabbi Yehudah he-Chasid's Shir ha-Kavod, that describes the longing for God, and searching to find Him.

All couples fight, absolutely, but they make up, as well. And if we haven't learned many other lessons, at least we tend to do less whoring about after other gods these days. Which is why I focus less on the fighting as an aspect of anger, and more on the struggling as an aspect of commitment.

Elie Wiesel once said that the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. And to me, that is key here. I have said to many people before, when they tell me that they are angry at God for some misfortune in their lives, or over some struggle they are having with their own spirituality or choices in observance: it's okay to be angry with God. It's even okay to sometimes hate God a little. That's natural. I only worry when people give up on God, and don't care anymore. No relationship can exist without passion.

 

[Caladan]

All couples fight, absolutely, but they make up, as well. And if we haven't learned many other lessons, at least we tend to do less whoring about after other gods these days. Which is why I focus less on the fighting as an aspect of anger, and more on the struggling as an aspect of commitment.

I completely agree with that. I tell my wife often after we fight and she tells me the same. that we should be worried if we would not struggle as we do with each other on the things we feel intensely about. to struggle is a strong indication of commitment. you need to struggle with those you love on the important issues in life. it means you are committed enough to hurt them in order to keep both of you on a straight line and direction.

Elie Wiesel once said that the opposite of love isn't hate, it's indifference. And to me, that is key here. I have said to many people before, when they tell me that they are angry at God for some misfortune in their lives, or over some struggle they are having with their own spirituality or choices in observance: it's okay to be angry with God. It's even okay to sometimes hate God a little. That's natural. I only worry when people give up on God, and don't care anymore. No relationship can exist without passion.

That is good Rabbinical psychology right there. Im sure our protagonists and heroes of renown profaned and cursed against god repeatedly, as the Hebrew Bible tells us. he made them walk barren lands, he made them thirst, and after they have finally arrived to their land, he told them they had to do battle and conquer it by force from the local inhabitants.
of course they hated him. of course they profaned against him. of course they gave up on him. but the Hebrew Bible also tells us that they achieved what they were guided to achieve.

 

[Rainy]

One must also remember that Judah is but one tribe of Israel.

With Joseph's double blessing on Ephraim and Manasseh, including the Levites, there are 13 tribes.

I often wonder why many place so much focus on the one tribe. If Judah was the only one struggling with God, it would be understandable. However, the curses and blessings are directed at all of Israel.

 

[Levite]

One must also remember that Judah is but one tribe of Israel.

With Joseph's double blessing on Ephraim and Manasseh, including the Levites, there are 13 tribes.

I often wonder why many place so much focus on the one tribe. If Judah was the only one struggling with God, it would be understandable. However, the curses and blessings are directed at all of Israel.

It is a misnomer to imagine that the Jewish people are entirely representative only of the tribe of Judah. It is true that most of the 10 tribes that made up the Northern Kingdom of Israel were scattered, assimilated, and lost to us during the Assyrian Conquest of 722 BCE, but some small numbers from each tribe became part of the Kingdom of Judah, which was made up of Judah, Benjamin, and much of the tribe of Levi.

Part of the reason that we no longer pay attention to tribal affiliation (with the exception of certain ritual honors for kohanim and levi'im, from the tribe of Levi) is because, having lost track of who is descended from which tribe, we collectively assume the identity of all Israel. All of us are equally inheritors of the covenant, inheritors of the commandments, and inheritors of both blessings and curses. And if anyone could be found that somehow could be traced back to the lost tribes, chances are they would either have assimilated and not be Jewish any longer, or their ways would have become so twisted and divergent from the main stream of Jewish thought that they would require conversion before rejoining the fold anyhow-- which is what happened with many if not most of the lost communities that have been found over the past few decades. And once rejoined, we still don't pay attention to tribal identity-- they are still only a part of the holisitic inheriting of all Israel's birthright.

 

[Levite]

I respectfully and strongly disagree.

The origin of the term, Yehudim, is for a member of the tribe of Judah or the people of the kingdom of Judah. The name of both the tribe and kingdom derive from Judah, the fourth son of Jacob. There were other sons with progeny.

And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, "Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days..." -Genesis 49.1

I believe the misnomer comes with believing that the name of Judah is the only name of all of Israel to transcend time.

You may certainly take that point of view. It is not, however, the view that Rabbinic Judaism has taken.

Rabbinic Judaism has always considered that Yehudim and Am Yisrael are synonymous. That those tribes who were lost to us are lost, and cannot be reconstituted until the messiah comes, since it is only then that we will be able to sort out not only who is descended from what tribe, but how those so long lost will be able to rejoin a people from whom they have been sundered so long that, according to Jewish Law, it is likely they will no longer be legally Jewish.

And as I pointed out, all the progeny of Jacob's sons are represented in the Jewish People, in some measure. This is why we do not count tribal affiliation, beyond levite or non-levite, but rather, anyone who is not a kohen or a levi is referred to for ritual identification only as "Yisrael."

 

[Caladan]

Rainy. is there any particular reason that you cannot contain yourself from polluting the Judaism DIR with foreign dogma?

 

[Tarheeler]

I joined in a discussion seeking some insight. If the staff discourages this type of thing on a religious forum with insults, I guess I am at the wrong forum.

You aren't at the wrong forum, but you are in the wrong section of this forum.

The DIR section is set up for a very specific function.

The DIR forums are for the express use for discussion by that specific group. They are not to be used for debate by anyone. People of other groups or faiths may post respectful questions to increase their understanding. Questions of a rhetorical or argumentative nature or that counter the beliefs of that DIR are not permitted. Only posts that comply with the tenets or spirit of that DIR are permitted. DIR areas are not to be used as cover to bash others outside the faith. The DIR forums are strictly moderated and posts are subject to editing or removal.

Your comments in this thread would be fine in one of the debating sections, but not a DIR.

 

[Reverend Rick]

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NO DEBATE WILL BE TOLERATED IN THE DIR​