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Israel

CMike

Well-Known Member
Egypt almost certainly won't be willing to accept the problems inherent with Gaza. If Hamas is eliminated, about the only scenario I can picture is that the U.N. might be willing to temporarily orchestrate new elections with the possibility that el-Fatah may be elected. It's a long shot, but I think it could be possible.
The UN is a big part of the problem.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
That you insist on 'Jewish' being nothing more than a theocratic category is evidence of an almost laughable ignorance.

I was talking about religion
By Jewish person I meant one who professes Judaism
By Muslim I meant one who professes Islam

In my country, all the religions are equal before the law. That's what I meant by irrelevant. So, before the law, it is irrelevant that you are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc etc.
that's what secularism is
When I said theocracy I was referring to countries like Iran
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The UN is a big part of the problem.

It is, but it's likely the only way a interim body can be set up in order to have new elections. If Israel or even el-Fatah were to try it, "conflict of interest" would be charged and the results would not likely be accepted by most in Gaza. Now whether enough would even go along with even the results of free elections is a whole nother question, but ya gotta start somewhere.
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
From a juridic point of view, the nouns "Jewish" and "Muslim" are absolutely irrelevant. A modern state is supposed to be secular, but I understand that the Middle East is full of theocracies. To us Europeans, Theocracy is synonym of cultural regress (no offense) because we Europeans have always fought to establish democratic, secular and enlightened governments. The French motto, Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité, is an example of this struggle.

So peace is obtained through enlightened ideas and secularism. Religion is irrational and can never match with the common welfare of a state.

Your "enlightened" secularism is another way of being inept at rational debate.
I responded to your "I meant that it is unnatural to take an entire nation and transfer them into a country which is already occupied by another nation," by pointing out the logical fallacy of that statement and you chose, in your "enlightened secularism" to babble on about theocracy and religion.
Cultural regression would be to totally ignore your initial premise and move on in another direction because your initial premise is indefensible and makes no sense whatsoever.

However, indeed, let us move on to your Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité.
Lovely sentiments all.
And, the French and Europeans in general, have decided upon Equality and Fraternity at the expense of Liberty.
Any logical, secular, discerning mind would understand that Equality in terms of human beings is a moot point.
According to secular Evolutionary theory, it is a fact that ALL men are born and live in Inequality.
It is only in G-d's eyes, which you apparently abhor, that Man is Created Equal.
I would strongly suggest you read: HARRISON BERGERON by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
This is where your precious secular values take you.

On the other hand, the United States of America once emphasized Liberty over Equality. This has been worn down over the years and, with the present administration, this value is currently in grave jeopardy.
There is a talk show host, Dennis Prager, who sums it up nicely. He states:

"First, the unique American values system — what I call the American Trinity — is under assault. These three values are declared on every American coin: Liberty, "E Pluribus Unum" and "In God We Trust."
The left has declared war on all three. And it is winning. It seeks to replace Liberty with egalitarianism, "E Pluribus Unum" with multiculturalism, and "In God We Trust" with a godless society. America is being transformed — candidate Barack Obama's favorite word for what he sought to do to this country — into a Western European country, the left's model of a great society."
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Your "enlightened" secularism is another way of being inept at rational debate.
I responded to your "I meant that it is unnatural to take an entire nation and transfer them into a country which is already occupied by another nation," by pointing out the logical fallacy of that statement and you chose, in your "enlightened secularism" to babble on about theocracy and religion.
Cultural regression would be to totally ignore your initial premise and move on in another direction because your initial premise is indefensible and makes no sense whatsoever.

However, indeed, let us move on to your Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité.
Lovely sentiments all.
And, the French and Europeans in general, have decided upon Equality and Fraternity at the expense of Liberty.
Any logical, secular, discerning mind would understand that Equality in terms of human beings is a moot point.
According to secular Evolutionary theory, it is a fact that ALL men are born and live in Inequality.
It is only in G-d's eyes, which you apparently abhor, that Man is Created Equal.
I would strongly suggest you read: HARRISON BERGERON by Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
This is where your precious secular values take you.

If you have read the entire post, I added then: They are supposed to live pacifically together.
The only way is to create a new secular state in which all the people, no matter their religion, are equal before the law.
Now tell me: what's wrong with a secular state?
What's wrong with secularism?
 

seeking4truth

Active Member
I listen to Israeli politicians saying that they cannot and will not deal with Hamas because they are terrorists.

Weren't some of the former Israeli politicians terrorists when they blew up King David Hotel years ago. Weren't some current politicians in northern Ireland IRA terrorists?

Isn't terrorism a result of perceived injustice, action taken by a frustrated and perhaps oppressed minority who feel they are not heard and can't get representation in another way.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Isn't terrorism a result of perceived injustice, action taken by a frustrated and perhaps oppressed minority who feel they are not heard and can't get representation in another way.

I'm pretty sure at least some terrorists must simply be ******** who like violence and cannot conceive of using any means but violence to get their way. It seems a fair assumption to me, given human nature.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Isn't USA also an artificially created state in the country of other native inhabitants.
Maybe that's why they're less sensitive to the plight of the Palestinians!

Please be so kind as to name a state that is not "artificially" created if you go back far enough. If you can do that, you simply haven't gone back far enough. Humans now and then migrate.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Yes. Stop oppressing palestinians and allow them an autonamous state.

The greatest oppressor of the Palestinians is Hamas, and some of the other governments in the region now recognize this. Both Hamas and ISIS are terrorist organizations that are threatening the entire region as we've seen.
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Yes. Stop oppressing palestinians and allow them an autonamous state.
The greatest oppressor of the Palestinians is Hamas, and some of the other governments in the region now recognize this. Both Hamas and ISIS are terrorist organizations that are threatening the entire region as we've seen.
Just to note: the tu quoque discussion is actually in a different thread.
 

Moishe3rd

Yehudi
I listen to Israeli politicians saying that they cannot and will not deal with Hamas because they are terrorists.

Weren't some of the former Israeli politicians terrorists when they blew up King David Hotel years ago. Weren't some current politicians in northern Ireland IRA terrorists?

Isn't terrorism a result of perceived injustice, action taken by a frustrated and perhaps oppressed minority who feel they are not heard and can't get representation in another way.
Why would you think that?
ISIS? Iran? Taliban? Syria? Russia etc.
These are all State or dominant groups using terror for the s
sole purpose of domination. They are not oppressed minorities.
 

seeking4truth

Active Member
Wealth does not relate to justice.
If citizens of a state feel that their needs and interests are dealt with justly and equitably then there would be no demand for protest, rebellion and terrorism to claim their rights.
Ambitious men who seek power and control would find no support among the general population if the general population had no grievances against the state.
 
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