Israeli Duty to Warn? What unmitigated gall (chutzpah)

[PureX]

Well plenty are looking in the wrong direction if religion is playing no role in this - given that Hamas apparently have political and religious leaders planning their actions. Together with the facts of the origins of so many religions being in relative close proximity, and hence the land being valued by any particular religion, there is enmity between the religions and often coming from the dogma of the religious authorities. No one would say this is purely religious, but without religions being an important component we wouldn't have so much hatred, anger, and conflict.

Do you think this war would not be happening if the participants were not religious? Based on what reasoning?

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

They have more than received their pound of flesh in the dead of children and noncombatants. It is time to back off.

The Israelis aren't looking for a proportionate response. They're looking for a solution to a culture committed to exterminating them.

I saw this last night on PBS, which I think is worth hearing, especially beginning at 11:32. I found it compelling: Bret Stephens

 

[Subduction Zone]

The Israelis aren't looking for a proportionate response. They're looking for a solution to a culture committed to exterminating them.

I saw this last night on PBS, which I think is worth hearing, especially beginning at 11:32. I found it compelling: Bret Stephens

Thanks, I will check that out in a bit. And that may justify their actions. I am not a hater either way. Personally I would have liked the UN to have ended this "Israel does not have a right to exist" a long long time ago. They were just kicking the problem down the road when one side is allowed to have that attitude.

 

[Orbit]

Do you think this war would: not be happening if the participants were not religious? Based on what reasoning?

I think it's more about this:

"In the West Bank, authorities have confiscated more than 2 million dunams of land from Palestinians, making up more than one-third of the West Bank, including tens of thousands of dunams that they acknowledge are privately owned by Palestinians. One common tactic they have used is to declare territory, including privately-owned Palestinian land, as “state land.” The Israeli group Peace Now estimates that the Israeli government has designated about 1.4 million dunams of land, or about a quarter of the West Bank, as state land. The group has also found that more than 30 percent of the land used for settlements is acknowledged by the Israeli government as having been privately owned by Palestinians. Of the more than 675,000 dunams of state land that Israeli authorities have allocated for use by third parties in the West Bank, they have earmarked more than 99 percent for use by Israeli civilians, according to government data. Land grabs for settlements and the infrastructure that primarily serves settlers effectively concentrate Palestinians in the West Bank, according to B’Tselem, into “165 non-contiguous ‘territorial islands.’”

From: A Threshold Crossed

 

[Shaul]

Can you describe this alleged conflation?

You referred to "Herzl's Jewish State". Herzl died in 1904. The State of Israel did not come into existence until 1948. The modern State of Israel had many foundations and was not just due to anything Herzl did. You are conflating.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Do you think this war would not be happening if the participants were not religious? Based on what reasoning?

I was stating that religions, given that they usually have origins in specific locations, will often be a source of conflict, especially when a new religion arises close by. And hence the religious beliefs and allegiance to lands/culture will be mixed as to this. So the sources of such conflicts should at least be recognised - as well as the various differences in doctrines and/or dogma that also is often laid down at the time when religions arise. There are plenty of conflicts not based on religions, but it is hard not to see a large element in this case. I mean the Muslims who carried out the atrocity, like so many others, do appear to have true hatred for Jews, and perhaps even towards all Christians. Not that they therefore represent all Muslims though - which is not what I believe. I can understand why the Palestinians have legitimate grievances but if they cannot honestly see that their current predicament is directly related to what Hamas did then they are truly delusional.

 

[PureX]

I was stating that religions, given that they usually have origins in specific locations, will often be a source of conflict, especially when a new religion arises close by.

But it's not actually the religion that is the source of conflict, it's geographical proximity combined with contending cultural and economic loyalties. Religion is just a part of cultural expression. So why are we always blaming the religions? Seems like an irrational and quite ineffective bias, to me.

And hence the religious beliefs and allegiance to lands/culture will be mixed as to this.

Why not blame language, or dress, or social mores instead of religion? Aren't these just as much a part of the expressed cultural contention between peoples as religion is?

So the sources of such conflicts should at least be recognised - as well as the various differences in doctrines and/or dogma that also is often laid down at the time when religions arise.

But religion is not the source. The source is the geographical proximity of different, competing cultures. Religion is just a ciltural expression of this contentious circumstance.

There are plenty of conflicts not based on religions, but it is hard not to see a large element in this case.

Human conflicts are not based on religion. Ever. They are based on the human desire for control and conquest. If religion plays a part, it's only as a kind of cultural "flag" for the contending groups to rally behind.

I mean the Muslims who carried out the atrocity, like so many others, do appear to have true hatred for Jews, and perhaps even towards all Christians.

They have a true hatred for what they believe the Jews and Christians have done to them. And in many instances, understandably so.

Not that they therefore represent all Muslims though - which is not what I believe. I can understand why the Palestinians have legitimate grievances but if they cannot honestly see that their current predicament is directly related to what Hamas did then they are truly delusional.

Hamas sees themselves and their people being slowly but consistently subjugated and/or exterminated. They can fight back and maybe die, or they can not fight back and surely be enslaved, or driven out, or killed, anyway. You don't seem to be understanding this. It has nothing to do with religion except as a cultural rallying cry. It's about their survival as a people in an environment intent on destroying them. An environment created and controlled by the Israelis.

What would you do under those circumstances?

 

[Revoltingest]

But it's not actually the religion that is the source of conflict, it's geographical proximity combined with contending cultural and economic loyalties. Religion is just a part of cultural expression. So why are we always blaming the religions? Seems like an irrational and quite ineffective bias, to me.

That's the believer's perspective.
This heathen sees Christianity behind USA's unconditional
support of Israel's every act, no matter how heinous.
Israel was created because of Christian & Jewish beliefs,
with no regard for the Muslims they both down upon.
Religions aren't the sole problem, but they are indeed integral.

 

[jbg]

Only about 9% of US oil imports come from the Middle East.

U.S. Oil Imports by Country​

According to data from the U.S. Energy and Information Administration, the United States imported between 8.1-8.8 million barrels of crude oil per day from July-December 2021. Just over a million barrels per day come from OPEC (Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries) nations, led by roughly 550,000 barrels a day from Saudi Arabia. The U.S. also imports nearly 7.5 million barrels of crude oil per day from non-OPEC nations. Chief among these is Canada, which supplies the U.S. with approximately 4.7 million barrels per day, significantly more than any other nation.​

​

Top 10 Countries from Which the U.S. Imports Oil (in barrels per day Dec. 2021):​

1. Canada — 4,783,000
2. Mexico — 645,000
3. Saudi Arabia — 550,000
4. Russia — 405,000
5. Colombia — 228,000
6. Iraq — 223,000
7. Ecuador — 219,000
8. United Kingdom — 126,000
9. Nigeria — 110,000
10. South Korea — 102,00.

US Oil Imports by Country 2024

worldpopulationreview.com

I agree tha toil is not the major concern but whether the imports are 9% or some higher or lower number is irrelevant. Oil is fungible so a reduction in supply immediately echoes in the price and availability. In other words if the supply drops worldwide it affects everyone. That is why world prices jumped as a result of Hurricane Katrina even though U.S. exports were nonexistent in 2005. Prices of product jumped in 2003 in response to the August 14, 2003 blackout since it knocked a lot of northeastern U.S. refineries off-line.

 

[Mock Turtle]

But it's not actually the religion that is the source of conflict, it's geographical proximity combined with contending cultural and economic loyalties. Religion is just a part of cultural expression. So why are we always blaming the religions? Seems like an irrational and quite ineffective bias, to me.

So the origins of a religion have no significance - no place to go to worship, for example (the origins)? Not what I have have noticed (Mecca, for example) and as to why some places mean so much to many even having different religious beliefs (Jerusalem). We? are not always blaming religions, just when such are obviously involved. Seems like looking the other way to me if not recognised as such.

Why not blame language, or dress, or social mores instead of religion? Aren't these just as much a part of the expressed cultural contention between peoples as religion is?

No issue here unless one ignores any religious beliefs and influences.

But religion is not the source. The source is the geographical proximity of different, competing cultures. Religion is just a ciltural expression of this contentious circumstance.

It is the source (one of) since if the religion never existed then there would be no issues over any particular piece of land - other than any other reasons that might exist, but we can't ignore one and simply point to the rest since this is just whataboutism. Religions often cause divisions and possibly unnecessary ones.

Human conflicts are not based on religion. Ever. They are based on the human desire for control and conquest. If religion plays a part, it's only as a kind of cultural "flag" for the contending groups to rally behind.

I'm sorry I can't accept that. Religions to some are more important than much else and hence do tend to influence their behaviour more than much else. No religion, no cause for whatever happens, or one less ay least. The Taliban misguidedly base their beliefs and exert their control based on what they believe comes from the Qur'an. Likewise the discrimination seen in many other religious beliefs or control over others - dress codes, for example.

They have a true hatred for what they believe the Jews and Christians have done to them. And in many instances, understandably so.

The causal chain - and both sides will likely share blame - but we have to look at current actions rather than travelling down the chain since this is not profitable.

Hamas sees themselves and their people being slowly but consistently subjugated and/or exterminated. They can fight back and maybe die, or they can not fight back and surely be enslaved, or driven out, or killed, anyway. You don't seem to be understanding this. It has nothing to do with religion except as a cultural rallying cry. It's about their survival as a people in an environment intent on destroying them. An environment created and controlled by the Israelis.

I understand it, but if committing suicide is their answer then they need psychiatrists more than much else.

What would you do under those circumstances?

I'd leave and find a life somewhere else obviously.

 

[sayak83]

Its less about revenge and more about removing Hamas as a group from Gaza entirely....bit like removing ISIS from Iraq. Imo, Israel should certainly do this clean-up operation till Hamas is entirely eliminated from Gaza. Then there can be joint UN-Israel administered occupation of Gaza for the next few years followed by an eventual hand-over to the Palestinian authority that administers the West Bank. . Ideally Gaza strip should be entirely demilitarized with no guns, ammunitions or anything in the hands of any person.
Of course, Israel can entirely mess this up....like George Bush Jr. did with the Afghanistan occupation disaster after 9/11. That is the more likely situation.

An informative read on the view of an ex Israeli intelligence and govt officer. His views on the end game seems to align with my initial assessment as well on what ought to be done. But I do not have any confidence on Netanyahu doing the reasonable thing. He will likely try to play vengeance ultra nationalist cards to secure his short term interests that will cause lots of violence and deaths and harm Israel in the long run.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/15/...derstood-hamas-kobi-michael-bergen/index.html

 

[PureX]

So the origins of a religion have no significance - no place to go to worship, for example (the origins)? Not what I have have noticed (Mecca, for example) and as to why some places mean so much to many even having different religious beliefs (Jerusalem). We? are not always blaming religions, just when such are obviously involved. Seems like looking the other way to me if not recognised as such.

When two cultures have existed in the same place and have developed to become rivals, their respective religions, political processes, languages, economic systems, and so on, will naturally reflect and support the animosity between them. You and others here want always to blame religion because you don't like religion. It's your preferred 'bogeyman' to blame for everything bad that people do. But people donlt do bad things because of religion. They use religion to justify doing those bad things, to themselves. There is a difference. And the difference is in the source.

The Jews and Palestinians have been fighting over the same area for many centuries. And their cultures reflect that animosity: their religions, politics, economics, languages, dress, ... everything about them. Each wants to be in control of ther corner of the world, but unfortunately they both want to be in control of the SAME corner of the world. The real source of their animosity is their desire to be in control of the same geographical area. Not religion. And our blaming their respective religions for it is just a pointless and therefor ineffective bias on our part.

It is the source (one of) since if the religion never existed then there would be no issues over any particular piece of land

Eliminating religion would not eliminate the animosity between these groups of humans. This is why maintaining this silly bias against religion is a big waste of time. Religion did not cause the strife. IT NEVER DOES. It simply reflects and justifies the strife that already exists.

- other than any other reasons that might exist, but we can't ignore one and simply point to the rest since this is just whataboutism. Religions often cause divisions and possibly unnecessary ones.

Nope. Never happens. Humans cause division by wanting to be in control: of the truth, or their environment, and of each other. It's all about control. Not religion.

I'm sorry I can't accept that.

You should be. It's just a silly bias that you won't let go of, even in the face of reason.

Religions to some are more important than much else and hence do tend to influence their behaviour more than much else.

So are flags, and s does flag waving. But the flags don't cause the strife, the flag wavers do. And they would engage in the same destructive behavior regardless of the flags they wave while doing it. Even if you take their flags away, they will still engage in the same destructive behavior. Because the flags aren't what's causing it.

You can keep telling yourself otherwise til you're blue, but it's never going to become true.

No religion, no cause for whatever happens, or one less ay least. The Taliban misguidedly base their beliefs and exert their control based on what they believe comes from the Qur'an. Likewise the discrimination seen in many other religious beliefs or control over others - dress codes, for example.

Their holy books, and especially their interpretation of them, reflect their beliefs, not cause them. Same as in any other religion. It's their version of a flag.

The causal chain - and both sides will likely share blame - but we have to look at current actions rather than travelling down the chain since this is not profitable.

If we don't acknowledge and study the real source, we have no hope of ever resolving the problem. The source is NOT religion. It's the innate human desire for control beyond that which is reasonable and productive.

I understand it, but if committing suicide is their answer then they need psychiatrists more than much else.

There is more to being human than just staying alive. For many of us, existing as an object under someone else's control is not living. And we will die to break that control if that's what it takes.

I'd leave and find a life somewhere else obviously.

You are not the ideal blueprint for all humankind. Your options are not everyone's options.

 

[PureX]

That's the believer's perspective.
This heathen sees Christianity behind USA's unconditional
support of Israel's every act, no matter how heinous.
Israel was created because of Christian & Jewish beliefs,
with no regard for the Muslims they both down upon.
Religions aren't the sole problem, but they are indeed integral.

Our insisting on being as stupid as the "believers" will solve nothing. It will only exacerbate the conflict. So why do it? Let's be smarter than the "believers" and look for the real causes of the conflict and not just the cultural flags of religion and historical vengeance. Because all those will do is make both sides all the more intractable.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hamas sees themselves and their people being slowly but consistently subjugated and/or exterminated.

So, too, the Nazis, but I'm not sure that I understand your point here. Hamas is not the Palestinians, nor is it Islam.

 

[PureX]

So, too, the Nazis, but I'm not sure that I understand your point here. Hamas is not the Palestinians, nor is it Islam.

In fact, Hamas is inextricably entwined with both. But that's a good trick, there, making them appear as if they're some violent rogue entity having no connection to the abuse of the Palestinian people by Israeli Jews or the abuse of many Muslim nations by the oil-hungry (mostly Christian) west.

 

[Mock Turtle]

When two cultures have existed in the same place and have developed to become rivals, their respective religions, political processes, languages, economic systems, and so on, will naturally reflect and support the animosity between them. You and others here want always to blame religion because you don't like religion. It's your preferred 'bogeyman' to blame for everything bad that people do. But people donlt do bad things because of religion. They use religion to justify doing those bad things, to themselves. There is a difference. And the difference is in the source.

Not so. I tend to look for the proper causes of things, and it is blatantly obvious that religion is a major factor in this issue if not the main one. It is more complicated because of the locations of the origins of these two religions, and Christianity being so close and relevant, as to 'holy land' being a factor. Plus the different belief systems seem to clash so as hatred between them being highly likely - what with previous history interactions. Whether they use religion or not, without such there would be no friction - or at least one less cause of such.

The Jews and Palestinians have been fighting over the same area for many centuries. And their cultures reflect that animosity: their religions, politics, economics, languages, dress, ... everything about them. Each wants to be in control of ther corner of the world, but unfortunately they both want to be in control of the SAME corner of the world. The real source of their animosity is their desire to be in control of the same geographical area. Not religion. And our blaming their respective religions for it is just a pointless and therefor ineffective bias on our part.

Again, religion is one aspect and has become probably the more important to some. Muslims do seem to have a tendency to proselytising and being controlling. And you are basically saying what I am saying - wanting control over the land they perceive as theirs by right.

Eliminating religion would not eliminate the animosity between these groups of humans. This is why maintaining this silly bias against religion is a big waste of time. Religion did not cause the strife. IT NEVER DOES. It simply reflects and justifies the strife that already exists.

Not to you perhaps but if they had no such religious beliefs why would they tend to hate each other? Oh, they would remember all the hatred from the past and keep on such? Well this often happens in cultures and nations, but as I've maintained for so long, religion is often the highest influencing belief for so many (especially Muslims) that this is what will often determine their behaviour. Given that so many will believe whatever is drummed into them during their regular attendances at any worship - or even schooling.

Nope. Never happens. Humans cause division by wanting to be in control: of the truth, or their environment, and of each other. It's all about control. Not religion.

And as above, the control is often from the religion than much else. How many places do you have to look to see this occurring in so many Muslim majority countries?

You should be. It's just a silly bias that you won't let go of, even in the face of reason.

And you are blind to the effects of religion. My bias is simply as to the effects of religions - and rightly so.

If we don't acknowledge and study the real source, we have no hope of ever resolving the problem. The source is NOT religion. It's the innate human desire for control beyond that which is reasonable and productive.

Nope. You are totally dismissing the main issue. Religions are often the main divisive components between various societies and such is maintained by having children indoctrinated into such religions - hence a lack of freedom to have one's own beliefs is the controlling factor. And this is regardless of whatever religion happens to be the one operating within many countries - so all dependent upon where one is born. How ludicrous is this? You will have this particular religion and perform like a good adherent, even be militant when the authorities call for such. Well that is true freedom - not!

There is more to being human than just staying alive. For many of us, existing as an object under someone else's control is not living. And we will die to break that control if that's what it takes.

Well ho,ho,ho. Which control have we been discussing for so long? It just so happens to be the religious ones - not even proven to be true either - and yet devoutly believed and being controlling for so many - and not just for Muslims of course.

You are not the ideal blueprint for all humankind. Your options are not everyone's options.

Hardly expect such to be the case, but I'm not the one discriminating against females (even as to most of the rest of the world condemning such), targeting those who don't conform to binary gender assignments or orientation, demand how females dress, dictate as to other freedoms or rights, and of course expect my particular version of religious belief to prevail over all others, even if one has to fight to secure such. No, I'm perfectly happy in being without such impediments and certainly not as to imposing such on others. But then I don't have any children so as to inflict my particular beliefs upon.

 

[England my lionheart]

The West will open it's borders to this kind of people and they will infiltrate and they will go on the long run.
They now this , we have seen this scenario many times.

You think they are stupid, the ones that take the decisions?
How do you think Israel missed this?
Why their war leader has escaped assasination many times?
They hate us all , regardless what we have to say.
What do you know about hamas military commander Mohhamed Deif , known as "The Guest"?
U.S. has dessignated Mohhamad Deif as a terrorist.

If people like him decide in this kind of situations , people will surely die , many will die as victims of someone's bad decisions.
He is the mastermind of this operation , he took the risk , and the price was very high.

Peacefull forces must enter Israel and stay there untill this finally resolves.
Many years of agony , it's a perfect time for the West to enter Israel.
Israel broked many international human right laws , and that's reason plus to enter there.
Power needs to be confronted with bigger power , because the only thing that matters is solution on this conflinct.

Many tourists died and there are others who are in custody.

Israel needs interfering of bigger and smarter forces.

Like it did in Aghanistan Huh.

 

[Bthoth]

In fact, Hamas is inextricably entwined with both. But that's a good trick, there, making them appear as if they're some violent rogue entity having no connection to the abuse of the Palestinian people by Israeli Jews or the abuse of many Muslim nations by the oil-hungry (mostly Christian) west.

Likewise, the folk imposing the retribution and retaliations against the civilians of gaza are not the jew.

I suppose that you have no idea that a huge number of the Israeli citizens are also US citizens (dual)

The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time.

 

[Revoltingest]

Our insisting on being a stupid as the "believers"....

Not worth addressing.

 

[PureX]

Likewise, the folk imposing the retribution and retaliations against the civilians of gaza are not the jew.

Well, they are Jewish Israelis.

I suppose that you have no idea that a huge number of the Israeli citizens are also US citizens (dual)

And almost all are still Jewish, and still Israeli, and still crying out for "an eye for an eye". As their Talmud teaches.

The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time.

How does this sophistry matter?