It is hypocritical to use religion and the Bible to justify opposition to abortion.

[Firelight]

How does a foetus or a baby "change its ways" exactly, in the Noah flood myth, the biblical deity would have killed countless pregnant women indiscriminately aborting the pregnancies, and of course murdering countless babies and children as well. Luckily it is a myth, and no such global flood has ever occurred, but it still ironic that people who oppose abortion, cite the bible as a sound metric for morality.

When are you claiming a deity did this? Only the universe is 13.8 billion years old, whereas our solar system is 4.571 billion years, and humans in their current form evolved a mere 200k years ago. Now perhaps you deny those facts, but I cannot ignore the objective facts in favour of unevidenced claims. So can you explain the disparity between your claim and the facts, with anything beyond subjective belief?

If you call it a myth then there’s no point of discussion with you. Goodbye.

 

[Altfish]

I don’t know where you live, but in the United States, mothers already get financial assistance, healthcare, and counseling. There are also, couples and adoption agencies who offer financial assistance, counseling, and healthcare for a pregnant woman willing to carry her baby and give it up for adoption. Couples wanting to adopt a baby outnumber the babies available for adoption.

I live in the UK, we get all of that and more, although the right wing nut jobs we currently have in charge are trying to change it

Sex education is the responsibility of parents. If parents don’t want that responsibility, then hospitals, social workers, churches, and/or other agencies in the community may feel free to hold a class for free or a small fee that parents can sign their kids up for. If the PTA or principal, along with parents decide to, then hold an after school class. The responsibility is not that of school boards or school teachers.

This is where you are wrong. In the UK it is taught in schools, of course parents have a role, but many parents give bad advice or none, so the schools fill that gap.
"An after school class"!!!!! It is more important than that. Do you let people drive cars on your roads with little or no instruction?

I don’t know what you mean by “free family planning.” Kids shouldn’t be into planning families at their young ages. If you are camouflaging birth control with such words, then communities are free to gather donations and provide whatever resources they please.

Of course Family Planning includes contraception, 'communities' when they are hung up about sex are not the people to give advice and charity is not a good source

As far as education goes, all the millions of illegals who cross the border get a free education, so why not one’s own citizens? They’ve been getting educated for years, using it as a reason to support abortion is ridiculous.

Grief, you're xenophobic too!
Every child gets a free education from the age of 4 until 18 in the UK.

I would support forced sterilization for both the mother and the father after two unwanted pregnancies, live births, or abortions, since they and their parents aren’t taking any responsibility on their own.

No, but I would council them, ensure they have access to good advice, contraception and support.

What ever happened to Jesus being compassionate? I thought you Christians followed his advice

 

[Altfish]

Lots of us on the anti-abortion side don’t live in Ireland and we are not subject to such extreme laws. The Savita case would not be considered an elective abortion in the USA. This started out as a miscarriage or a spontaneous abortion and it would continue to be considered such. Many Doctors would know, at least from the point of the water breaking if not before, that the mother would develop infection, putting her life in danger, if the fetus didn’t deliver. Therefore, if the fetus failed to deliver, it would be forced out by a means the doctor deemed best for the patient and the situation. There are other countries that would follow a similar protocol. Don’t assume the entire world is like Ireland and would allow a mother to die due to an incomplete miscarriage. This isn’t what anti-abortionists stand for in the USA.

So in the US, the abortions sanctioned by god are OK?

 

[Firelight]

But he knew it would, so why make a big deal about how good it is when it's really not since sin is allowed?

You’re posting to the wrong person. I’m not the one who cares if he called it good.

 

[Firelight]

"Duality" is a concept used to understand the Advaita teaching in Indian Scriptures


"Original sin" is a concept used by many Christians

Okay.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What’s the difference between Pro-Choice and Freedom of Choice? And Pro-Choice and Pro-abortion?

Pro-Choice and Pro-Life is about abortion. Pro-choice stands for women to choose an abortion at ANY time during pregnancy and for ANY reason. Pro-Life is against abortion, except during cases where the mother’s life is in danger, cases of incest, and very rarely (depends mostly on age) cases of rape. It’s called Pro-Life because it stands for anti-abortion, but don’t expect the mother to die if HER life is in danger during pregnancy; and pro-adoption when mother doesn’t want her child or cannot take care of her child.

Then I am neither pro-choice nor pro-life. I think you are missing something.

 

[Firelight]

In your answer to @Altfish you said:


That seems reasonable to me if true. Why do you think women don't make use of those offers?
Don't they know about them? Don't they trust those offers because too many women have been lied to? Are they still worse off with those offers than with an abortion?
Should the adoption agencies work together with a trustworthy organization like Planed Parenthood to get their information out and believed?

How do you reconcile your opinion that there is assistance for children with the statistics?
"Children remain the poorest age group in America. Nearly 1 in 6 lived in poverty in 2018—nearly 11.9 million children (see Table 2). The child poverty rate (16 percent) is nearly one-and-a-half times higher than that for adults ages 18-64 (11 percent) and two times higher than that for adults 65 and older (10 percent)." - The State of America's Children 2020 - Child Poverty — Children's Defense Fund

My post was in direct response and answer to Altfish comments and questions. I did not post them as an opinion or for a show of support or non-support of anything. I was simply stating what’s available. Therefore, I’m not responding to your questions that ask for my related “opinions.”

 

[Firelight]

Then I am neither pro-choice nor pro-life. I think you are missing something.

What is missing is no one is saying which country they are speaking for, and it seems we all are speaking from different countries. What something means in one country is not what it means in another, yet many here are speaking as though we are all from the same place.
Therefore I am leaving this subject’s forum. There is no point in carrying on conversations when Everyone fails to identify for which country they speak for, it only creates confusion.

It’s odd that so many people would think that things are the same in different countries.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What is missing is no one is saying which country they are speaking for, and it seems we all are speaking from different countries. What something means in one country is not what it means in another, yet many here are speaking as though we are all from the same place.
Therefore I am leaving this subject’s forum. There is no point in carrying on conversations when Everyone fails to identify for which country they speak for.

It has nothing to do with a country.

 

[Heyo]

My post was in direct response and answer to Altfish comments and questions. I did not post them as an opinion or for a show of support or non-support of anything. I was simply stating what’s available. Therefore, I’m not responding to your questions that ask for my related “opinions.”

We were discussing incentives to avoid abortion in #42. Your - public - answer to @Altfish was also an answer to my question. But I'm OK with you conceding that point and go to the next.

You wrote:

“A woman’s right to bodily autonomy? “ Hahahaha.

A right that is on the UN Human Rights Declaration and recognized by almost all developed countries (though not the US, but then, it is debatable if the US is a developed country) is a joke to you?
You seemed an open minded person with some compassion at first and I hoped we could come to a compromise but the above seems more like you are digging your heels in. Open opposition especially from multiple sides can do that to you.
Anyway, I find that many debating "pro lifers" are motivated by deep misogyny which makes them blind to their hypocrisy. Are you opposed only to women's right to bodily autonomy or generally to the right to bodily autonomy? E.g. are you pro or contra forced vaccinations?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

What is missing is no one is saying which country they are speaking for, and it seems we all are speaking from different countries. What something means in one country is not what it means in another, yet many here are speaking as though we are all from the same place.
Therefore I am leaving this subject’s forum. There is no point in carrying on conversations when Everyone fails to identify for which country they speak for, it only creates confusion.

It’s odd that so many people would think that things are the same in different countries.

So take #2. If you looked at the graphics for the USA, there is one missing. In effect I am in muddled middle of as much illegal as legal in a sense. And I bet you can find those in the USA also.

 

[Firelight]

So in the US, the abortions sanctioned by god are OK?

I don’t know what that means, “abortions sanctioned by God?” I have never heard of or used that phrase. Don’t assume everything is the same in different countries.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I don’t know what that means, “abortions sanctioned by God?” I have never heard of or used that phrase. Don’t assume everything is the same in different countries.

Why do you insist on an international forum in a general sub-forum for debate to limit this about the USA? I mean abortions, women and right are not uniquely only of the USA nor in the case of religion. Are you in effect claiming that the USA is so special that it has nothing to with the rest of the world.

 

[1213]

Abortion is not murder. ...

Why abortion is not murder, if it is murder for example to kill you? Why it is ok to kill young children, but not old?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Why abortion is not murder, if it is murder for example to kill you? Why it is ok to kill young children, but not old?

Because murder is not a fact. It is an evaluation. And there are others variants of that than just your religion.

 

[Altfish]

I don’t know what that means, “abortions sanctioned by God?” I have never heard of or used that phrase. Don’t assume everything is the same in different countries.

Miscarriages, still births, ectopic pregnancies, etc.

 

[Fool]

The “option” that Pro-choice supports is the option for abortion, otherwise one would be Pro-life/Anti-abortion. What other options and choices are there for Pro-choicers to give a woman? Adoption? That’s Pro-life. Childcare? Healthcare? Food? Support? Again, Pro-life. What options do you have to offer besides destroying a tiny little life? A woman either gets an abortion or she doesn’t, it’s completely straight-forward that those are the only two choices available. Pro-abortion and Anti-abortion or Anti-life and Pro-life are very fitting. Pro-choice and Anti-choice don’t fit, since Anti-abortion/Pro-life have 3x as many choices to offer.

Pro-choicers hate a legislative bill being introduced that requires an ultrasound be offered to the woman so she may see the development of the fetus and hear the heartbeat before making a choice. Choicers are also against advising a woman that the fetus feels pain while being destroyed during an abortion, and are against administering pain meds to the fetus beforehand. The “woman” in my example is a healthy woman with a healthy fetus, which most abortion choosers are. Pro-lifers do not expect an unhealthy woman to give up her life for her unborn child.

the bible doesn't teach that a fetus is a living human being.

the religious right is trespassing against their neighbor and coveting what isn't their's.

the right to self-governance politically and free-will spiritually is being trespassed against.


anyone claiming that the bible is anti-abortion is bearing false witness

 

[Fool]

Miscarriages, still births, ectopic pregnancies, etc.

miscarriages in medical terminology are actually referred to as spontaneous abortions

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why abortion is not murder, if it is murder for example to kill you? Why it is ok to kill young children, but not old?

I am a person. A fetus is not a person.

According to the Bible a fetus is not a person either.

 

[stvdv]

What’s the difference between Pro-Choice and Freedom of Choice?

Freedom of Choice means:
I choose for myself
Others also decide for themselves

I need not decide for others

Difference:
No need to judge others for the choice they are making. No need to critique them, no need to go to demonstrations