It is up to us

[Spirit of Light]

This saying has so much wisdom in it, and if is a profound part of the enlightenment to the wisdom of God

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The problems with traditions and figuring out what they mean is what do they mean? Those times and cultures are long gone. And what is so good about tradition anyways? We're always told about how great it is, but never why it is. And if it can't be explained beyond "it just is" then an investigation and inquiry is mandated.
But it's also an issue of today. We live in a world that is changing and evolving so rapidly that our traditional means of making sense of the world and deriving morality and ethics from are failing us at an unprecedented rate. When I was a child it was still very widely believed humans were the apex animal, the only who can think, reason, and read, the only self aware animal, and the only ones with complex emotional states and cultures. Today we've learned none of that is true, but not only that we've also began to realize that even plants have something going on in terms of perception and communication. This forces us to update our understandings of the world because so many of our traditions do not consider these things.
We are also are far more acutely aware of our world being finite than our ancestors. We could exile people in the past, but where could we send them today? We didn't always have to worry about a limited number of people and could consume without much thought or foresight. Today this folly of our ancestors--a folly we continued--is slapping us in the face.
Even how we think about work and compensation and purchasing/acquiring power is becoming obsolete and torn asunder by what is a force of silicon slaves who never eat, sleep, or disobey.
And people in far away lands aren't so far way anymore. They aren't even faces on a TV commercial about impoverished people in far away lands. Many of them are now in our "digital living room" in a world connected by instant communication. And even a lot of that is bringing us into brand new territory as we are forced to rethink things and come up with new ideas and concepts to better suit these new times.

 

[Spirit of Light]

The problems with traditions and figuring out what they mean is what do they mean? Those times and cultures are long gone. And what is so good about tradition anyways? We're always told about how great it is, but never why it is. And if it can't be explained beyond "it just is" then an investigation and inquiry is mandated.
But it's also an issue of today. We live in a world that is changing and evolving so rapidly that our traditional means of making sense of the world and deriving morality and ethics from are failing us at an unprecedented rate. When I was a child it was still very widely believed humans were the apex animal, the only who can think, reason, and read, the only self aware animal, and the only ones with complex emotional states and cultures. Today we've learned none of that is true, but not only that we've also began to realize that even plants have something going on in terms of perception and communication. This forces us to update our understandings of the world because so many of our traditions do not consider these things.
We are also are far more acutely aware of our world being finite than our ancestors. We could exile people in the past, but where could we send them today? We didn't always have to worry about a limited number of people and could consume without much thought or foresight. Today this folly of our ancestors--a folly we continued--is slapping us in the face.
Even how we think about work and compensation and purchasing/acquiring power is becoming obsolete and torn asunder by what is a force of silicon slaves who never eat, sleep, or disobey.
And people in far away lands aren't so far way anymore. They aren't even faces on a TV commercial about impoverished people in far away lands. Many of them are now in our "digital living room" in a world connected by instant communication. And even a lot of that is bringing us into brand new territory as we are forced to rethink things and come up with new ideas and concepts to better suit these new times.

My understanding is that the text is about spiritual or religious tradition and teaching.
And since non of the spiritual masters from that time is here noe, it is up to us who follow the psth today to study so much that we do understand the true meaning.

 

[danieldemol]

This saying has so much wisdom in it, and if is a profound part of the enlightenment to the wisdom of God

In certain cases the history of the text is sufficiently unknown, preventing us from knowing its intended meaning.

Whilst this has the advantage of allowing us to make up our own meaning (through post hoc rationalisation etc) we could have made up our own meaning without the recieved traditions, so arguably they are worthless (other than for the purpose of lending legitimacy in our own eyes to our own personal opinions).

In my opinion.

 

[Spirit of Light]

In certain cases the history of the text is sufficiently unknown, preventing us from knowing its intended meaning.

Whilst this has the advantage of allowing us to make up our own meaning (through post hoc rationalisation etc) we could have made up our own meaning without the recieved traditions, so arguably they are worthless (other than for the purpose of lending legitimacy in our own eyes to our own personal opinions).

In my opinion.

Your opinion is valid too

 

[AlexanderG]

We have so much better words today to use as a starting point for a good moral foundation. Why not use those words instead, and simply say what we mean, instead of trawling for specks of meaning amongst the horrific scribblings of ancient, morally-backward men who were ignorant of the most basic facts about reality? We have moral thought, poetry, and metaphor today that can better serve humanity.

Scriptural interpretation is a Rorschach test. Whatever meaning you glean from it will tell you about your underlying personality and emotional needs; it tells you nothing about any god. Maybe that's still a useful exercise, but this personal growth can be achieved by other means that lead to much more effective introspection, with less unjustified self-righteousness.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

My understanding is that the text is about spiritual or religious tradition and teaching.
And since non of the spiritual masters from that time is here noe, it is up to us who follow the psth today to study so much that we do understand the true meaning.

Yes. But why is it good to hold on to those things? Like the animal examples. There aren't many good religious or spiritual traditions in regards to the treatment of animals. Many of these traditions come from beliefs humans are superior, that animals can be slave workers, they don't percieve their suffering, and that they are ours to do with as we please. Even many we hold up as ideal and achieving this didn't actually and just as well contributed to over hunting and driving other animals to extinction.
Should we not look for something new that outright and upfront embraces ethical considerations to other animals and not just the human animal given we know our traditions have been wrong and leading to great amounts of needless suffering?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The problems with traditions and figuring out what they mean is what do they mean? Those times and cultures are long gone.

It has been offered that is why there is progressive Revelation, each Faith is renewed and finds meaning in the One that God has sent to remove the error that has clouded past scripture.

I good example is whan Jesus says many times that you have heard Moses say, but now I say unto you, correcting errors of doctrine built by man.

Muhammad is another good example telling the Christians that they have the doctrine of the Trinity wrong and then explains how.

Then we get to this age, one can choose to see that Baha'u'llah has shown how it all fits together in perfect harmony of meaning.

That is progressive Revelation in a nutshell, but there is lots to be discussed.

If we are to beleive that all that is left by tradition is mere words, how are we to know what was meant, if God does not fulfil the eternal Covernant and leaves us alone in those incorrect thoughts? Stands to reason God will send the Messages how God has always chosen to send the Messages, via a Prophet, Messenger, Manifestation.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

My understanding is that the text is about spiritual or religious tradition and teaching.
And since non of the spiritual masters from that time is here noe, it is up to us who follow the psth today to study so much that we do understand the true meaning.

Independent investigation of Truth has been offerd as a path to better understandingof scripture.

Following blindly adoctrinal belief, does not get to the truth of the intent God has for us. In the past it was necessary as a way to create order, but when the religious leaders became the persecutors of God's Messengers, God has removed their influence and put it into the hands of each individual.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

There aren't many good religious or spiritual traditions in regards to the treatment of animals. Many of these traditions come from beliefs humans are superior, that animals can be slave workers, they don't percieve their suffering, and that they are ours to do with as we please. Even many we hold up as ideal and achieving this didn't actually and just as well contributed to over hunting and driving other animals to extinction.

Wheras now there is teachings on kindness to animals.

When religion is progressive, God knows the hearts of the age to come. God guides us with all we need to embrace what that age will face.

In this global age it can be sen we have been gifted all the guidance we do requires.

If that is so or not so, is an individual choice in life.

Regards Tony

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Then we get to this age, one can choose to see that Baha'u'llah has shown how it all fits together in perfect harmony of meaning.

How is that not saying god is wrong? Such as, it's said god literally spoke to Moses on a number of occasions, and even appeared to the ancient as fog and spoke to them collectively.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Wheras now there is teachings on kindness to animals.

And the point is those are not traditional views. Not at all. Like a lot of us, our culture is so untraditional that we can choose to be a vegetarian and have debates and discussions on health merits or shortcomings. Even the most animal-friendly cultures in the past, you got over the guilt of killing and eating bambi or you didn't eat.
And, there is evidence that those of the past in some cases were able to make the decision to be vegetarian. The Bible is one such source, where we find Paul ridiculing vegetarians and calling them weak. But again there is no precedence for claims of tradition, as indeed Rome was heinously cruel to animals.
We really do have to make our own traditions in this regard. Stuffs changing so fast that I argued in college that cats and dogs are self aware against a professor going by the general scientific consensus that they aren't. But now the consensus is all animals are probably self aware.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

When religion is progressive, God knows the hearts of the age to come. God guides us with all we need to embrace what that age will face.

When a religion is progressive it is saying we can't look to the past or tradition because even the laws of god are wrong. Otherwise we call it a conservative religion, where the past and tradition are upheld as ideals.
And that brings me to another question I asked. Why is tradition good? What about tradition is good? Does it even serve a purpose outside of adhering to tradition? We frequently hear tradition is good, but the questions that creates are rarely answered or addressed. It's often considered good in-and-of itself. But why is that?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How is that not saying god is wrong? Such as, it's said god literally spoke to Moses on a number of occasions, and even appeared to the ancient as fog and spoke to them collectively.

It is saying what man needed in the past, is not needed in this age.

This is seen throughout all the Holy books.

Islam teaches us that it is all about submission to laws suited to the age we live.

The Jews know the value of following laws to create strong and vibrant Nations, yet we must be able to change and embrace new concepts.

What does not change is the core values of Virtue and Morality, what changes are the laws and guidance for the age we live.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We really do have to make our own traditions in this regard. Stuffs changing so fast that I argued in college that cats and dogs are self aware against a professor going by the general scientific consensus that they aren't. But now the consensus is all animals are probably self aware.

We have the bounty in this age that we have been gifted scientific advancement along with the spiritual requirement to show kindness to animals.

We have found a lot of cancer and disease most likely stem from the eating of animals. When we stop war and spend on medical and agricultural advancement, we will not eat animals, we will not be cruel to animals nor desire to take their lives.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When a religion is progressive it is saying we can't look to the past or tradition because even the laws of god are wrong. Otherwise we call it a conservative religion, where the past and tradition are upheld as ideals.
And that brings me to another question I asked. Why is tradition good? What about tradition is good? Does it even serve a purpose outside of adhering to tradition? We frequently hear tradition is good, but the questions that creates are rarely answered or addressed. It's often considered good in-and-of itself. But why is that?

That is where we get to choose, I have not found it to be wise on RF to offer much more than to say it is up to us what is a good tradition and what are the less desirable ones.

But I can offer two extremes to make a point.

Female circumcision, good or bad?

Feeding and caring for the poor, the weak and the sick, good or bad?

Regards Tony

 

[osgart]

You could probably just go with a dictionary of ancient to modern day words and find great wisdom in those words. And then do further study into what those words mean to one personally.

As for scriptures, I'm not sure what is to be gained from them other than how ancient, tribal religions conceive of their reality, and create stories to teach themselves lessons, and perhaps politically motivate their tribe.

I just don't think truth is of one tribe's interpretation. I think the truth is universal and makes no promises nor any guarantees. Truth isn't private to any one person or group.

Truth is where the rubber meets the road. It's born out of love, and necessity, and perhaps hope in something greater.

I see the passion there is for many to believe in a God. I hold a passion for God, but not just any God; a true God. Yet I find no reason to believe in a God's existence.

I know the initial appeal to holy books, and religion and traditions, and places of worship. It's powerful I admit. But to me it is a dream world romanticizing something that ultimately has no real substance and shows much partiality to war, and to tribes.

On my quest I felt ultimately that religion is man made, and God was very much hidden from a world proclaiming righteousness, and victory. That maybe God is only open to the humble, and to those who hold no partiality, and to those who don't draw attention to themselves in any vain way.

At the end of my quest I find dirt and dust, and no God to speak of. So I just live out truth for truth's sake, and follow the truth wherever it leads. Hoping against hope that there is a greater reality than the one we are living. I embrace the mystery of existence because I do see that it is mysterious.

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

This saying has so much wisdom in it, and if is a profound part of the enlightenment to the wisdom of God

You are quite correct.

But few desire to find.

 

[SigurdReginson]

I feel like this saying rings especially true for those who are willing to consider not only the meaning that they find, but the meaning others find as well. Different positions offer different perspectives.

 

[Twilight Hue]

The problems with traditions and figuring out what they mean is what do they mean? Those times and cultures are long gone. And what is so good about tradition anyways? We're always told about how great it is, but never why it is. And if it can't be explained beyond "it just is" then an investigation and inquiry is mandated.
But it's also an issue of today. We live in a world that is changing and evolving so rapidly that our traditional means of making sense of the world and deriving morality and ethics from are failing us at an unprecedented rate. When I was a child it was still very widely believed humans were the apex animal, the only who can think, reason, and read, the only self aware animal, and the only ones with complex emotional states and cultures. Today we've learned none of that is true, but not only that we've also began to realize that even plants have something going on in terms of perception and communication. This forces us to update our understandings of the world because so many of our traditions do not consider these things.
We are also are far more acutely aware of our world being finite than our ancestors. We could exile people in the past, but where could we send them today? We didn't always have to worry about a limited number of people and could consume without much thought or foresight. Today this folly of our ancestors--a folly we continued--is slapping us in the face.
Even how we think about work and compensation and purchasing/acquiring power is becoming obsolete and torn asunder by what is a force of silicon slaves who never eat, sleep, or disobey.
And people in far away lands aren't so far way anymore. They aren't even faces on a TV commercial about impoverished people in far away lands. Many of them are now in our "digital living room" in a world connected by instant communication. And even a lot of that is bringing us into brand new territory as we are forced to rethink things and come up with new ideas and concepts to better suit these new times.

That's a huge issue. Applying a 20th century mindset to ancient text and oration of the time.