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"It" Makes a Difference

Meriweather

Not all those who wander are lost
But that's sort of the point, gender for spiritual, non-reproductive beings would be superfluous, and even an unnecessary hindrance to more complete spiritual/mental interactions. It's hard for any human to imagine, much less dispassionately evaluate, such an existence without gender. But if God is One, which I think is certain if It exists at all, that preempts gender out-of-hand.

As for "It" itself, I've tried other routes. Intentional coining a word is usually a fluke rather than by intent. I attempted to coin the word "veritology" for the study of the nature of Truth, but it was quickly co-opted by more than on crank religious groups, reducing it's usefulness to nil. The dictionary in our modern world is under continual assault even, or especially, on well established words. It's most commonly observed in political correctness and in academic psychobabble.

I tried just using "God", but text becomes rapidly stilted and artificial doing so. Of your suggestions, "One" comes the closest to being suitable, but it soon suffers from the same thing as just using "God" in every instance does. We need a pronoun there for the same reasons we need pronouns elsewhere, and over time, using "It" has actually grown on me if for no other reason than it continues to emphasize the necessary genderlessness of God, if It exists.

And something occurred to me, what do we call an embryo before it's sex is determined. We sometimes force our hopes on things by referring to it as a him or her, but more often than not we call it, "it". Just because we degenderize something doesn't mean we're demeaning it or disrespecting it. And with God, we aren't removing It's gender, we're just coming to accept the terminology we should have used in the first place--though I know it's hard what with the millennia behind referring to God ("Our Father, who art in heaven") in the masculine. Of course I'm not suggesting believers should say "It, who art in heaven...."

BTW, how do you refer to something inanimate, like a rock, in Spanish? And how would you translate, it's raining?

"There is a rock in my shoe" is a good sentence to demonstrate how gender is always present in Spanish.

The word for the rock is la piedra (feminine). The word for the shoe is el zapato (masculine). The sentence in Spanish would be, Tengo una piedra en el zapato. When we put the gender in place, we are saying, I have a (feminine) rock in my (masculine) shoe.

It's raining would be, "Está lloviendo." Rain is "la lluvia" (feminine).

Naturally, rocks, shoes, and rain do not have human genders, but the Spanish language assigns a gender to everything. Because this was part of my early education, assigning a gender to God was never an issue for me. Christ was male, and he referenced God as Father, so I have no issues with God being "assigned" the masculine gender any more than I have an issue with shoe being "assigned" (when speaking Spanish) a masculine gender.

Every so often (not always) scripture references the Holy Spirit in the feminine, and wisdom almost always in the feminine.

An interesting aspect for those who have near death experiences is that they have a very difficult time finding words to describe the experience. I suspect the language we will know then will resolve any gender issues. But that's then, and this is now, so now I have no issues of using the gender language we do have to reference God. And, I know you mean no disrespect with your "it"--even though I can't help but think your concern about gender is a bit over the top. No worries. We're all over the top about something!
 

arthra

Baha'i
Yeah usually He, or sometimes She. I guess since man invented the revealed gods, they can call them anything they want. I tried just using God all the time but it doesn't always work and is often clumsy.

Well some men have certainly composed their own prayers and that's proper.

A lot of our Baha'i prayers don't use a masculine pronoun anyway.. for instance:

"Praise be to Thee, O Lord my God!..."

"Unto Thee be praise, O Lord my God!"

"Lauded be Thy Name, O Lord my God!"

It certainly beats "It"!
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
And, I know you mean no disrespect with your "it"--even though I can't help but think your concern about gender is a bit over the top. No worries. We're all over the top about something!

Certainly not, I'm just trying to keep things in perspective, which I would think God would find praiseworthy. After all, as I pointed out, when God referred to Itself, the language "I am that I am was used", which doesn't refer to any gender. And that probably precedes most of the rest of the Bible.

Well some men have certainly composed their own prayers and that's proper.

A lot of our Baha'i prayers don't use a masculine pronoun anyway.

Is that to say none do?
 

Liu

Well-Known Member
A lot of our Baha'i prayers don't use a masculine pronoun anyway.. for instance:

"Praise be to Thee, O Lord my God!..."

"Unto Thee be praise, O Lord my God!"

"Lauded be Thy Name, O Lord my God!"

It certainly beats "It"!
I don't know about the language these prayers are written in originally, but in English, "lord" can only refer to males. So, even if you avoid the pronoun you don't avoid the genders.

In German, my native language, we have three genders, like the pronouns in English, but using "es" ('it') doesn't seem like a proper alternative. Not only is it mostly used for things, but if it's used for people then it implies pejoration, denigration or diminution. Neuter gender nouns that refer to people refer either to children, or are pejorative expressions, mostly referring to women (pejorative expressions for men are often feminine). In some dialects neuter pronouns can also be used in a respectful manner if referring to children and female adults, but that's not the case in my dialect.

And the word "Gott" ('god') itself also is masculine here. It was a neuter about 1500 years ago, but even going back to inflecting it as a neuter doesn't help much since in half the cases neuter forms are identical to masculine forms, so even neuter doesn't really feel like a truly neutral form.
Gender-neutrality is really difficult to achieve. Makes me glad that I can think in English; its pronouns it, shi and especially xe are a bit more useable to achieve actual neutrality.
So, if referring to a god as a non-personal something, e.g. as in advaita, I'd use "it", if referring to a specific deity I'd either use "he" or "she", or, if that fits better, "shi" or "xe".
 
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Robert.Evans

You will be assimilated; it is His Will.
Well, here is how my finite mind best understands it.

Brahman is infinite pure consciousness. He has a creative aspect (much like why do humans create art/plays that don't have a practical value). In this play He separates Himself from Himself and experiences through finite forms. In the second act, He returns Himself to Himself by overcoming the ego-identification with the finite form. It is a play with drama in the middle and a happy ending in Nirvana/Moksha for all. The joy is in the experiencing of ever expanding consciousness until Liberation.
Subsitute that for the Name and I would agree. Do you believe anything about Platonism?
 

Meriweather

Not all those who wander are lost
Certainly not, I'm just trying to keep things in perspective, which I would think God would find praiseworthy. After all, as I pointed out, when God referred to Itself, the language "I am that I am was used", which doesn't refer to any gender. And that probably precedes most of the rest of the Bible.

What is praiseworthy is the sincere effort to know and understand God. As I said, with the connotations that revolve around "it", I remain in the camp that it is over-the-top to reference God as "It." Many years ago I read a story about a horribly abused child. The book's title: A Child Called "It".

Still, this goes back to, "Do unto others..." If you would prefer to be referred to as "It" than a mistaken "him" or "her", you may have a case. Also on your side is that it is used as a second reference for people in sentences such as, "The mayor told the City Council it should not act hastily." Where we agree is that God fully understands what is in your heart.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I don't know about the language these prayers are written in originally, but in English, "lord" can only refer to males. So, even if you avoid the pronoun you don't avoid the genders.

True.

In German, my native language, we have three genders, like the pronouns in English, but using "es" ('it') doesn't seem like a proper alternative. Not only is it mostly used for things, but if it's used for people then it implies pejoration, denigration or diminution.

Exactly, but, a divine, omnipotent, creator, God that is "One", could hardly be equated with people, much less have a need for reproduction, sexual or otherwise. In fact, religions have struggled with this conundrum of a male god in need of a female. It's even occurred in biblical apocrypha. And we're sometimes treated to a god with both male & female qualities. :rolleyes: Most notably, we see this male/female duality (in parallel with other dualities) in the yin/yang symbol.

All I'm saying is that "It" is the best we have at this point, and overcoming the minor pejorative negatives is easier than trying the near impossible of coining a new word. Yes, "it" is used for things, but when it comes down to it, we don't know that God isn't a thing, albeit a conscious, supernatural thing.

Neuter gender nouns that refer to people refer either to children, or are pejorative expressions, mostly referring to women (pejorative expressions for men are often feminine). In some dialects neuter pronouns can also be used in a respectful manner if referring to children and female adults, but that's not the case in my dialect.

And the word "Gott" ('god') itself also is masculine here. It was a neuter about 1500 years ago, but even going back to inflecting it as a neuter doesn't help much since in half the cases neuter forms are identical to masculine forms, so even neuter doesn't really feel like a truly neutral form.

Progress almost always requires effort, and cost, but if the goal is positive, it's worth it.

So, if referring to a god as a non-personal something, e.g. as in advaita, I'd use "it", if referring to a specific deity I'd either use "he" or "she", or, if that fits better, "shi" or "xe".

Well isn't the non-dual one and only God, the advaita, thus qualifying it for your designation as "It" (capitalized of course, which helps to convey respect). Speaking of progress, I think this qualifies. BTW, I'd never know English wasn't your native language.

One, how do you know this, and two, why did he make us this way then?

What need would an eternally One God need of reproduction. And we don't know all sentients in the universe ARE "this way". But more than that, what you ask is pretty much the same thing as asking why we suffer, why we must toil, and why we all must die. A lot had to be done to spawn sentients in rational environment in which to make free will rational, moral choices without being under the influence of God--if God exists at all.

What is praiseworthy is the sincere effort to know and understand God. As I said, with the connotations that revolve around "it", I remain in the camp that it is over-the-top to reference God as "It." Many years ago I read a story about a horribly abused child. The book's title: A Child Called "It".

A non-sequitur. And again, I'm attempting to overcome the negative connotations, in part by capitalizing "It". And, btw, the child in the title isn't an it, he's a boy. Just because some people use a word in a negative way, that doesn't mean we should surrender that word to the bad guys. That's part of the evil of political correctness.

Still, this goes back to, "Do unto others..." If you would prefer to be referred to as "It" than a mistaken "him" or "her", you may have a case.

I'm talking about God being a revered It. Which doesn't mean I, not being God, but a man, am a he.

Also on your side is that it is used as a second reference for people in sentences such as, "The mayor told the City Council it should not act hastily." Where we agree is that God fully understands what is in your heart.

Indeed.
 

arthra

Baha'i
I know for Baha'is we don't have an anthropomorphic view of God so it rises above the gender of language... I also think the following is important to consider.. that the Essence of God is unknown to us...

All the people have formed a god in the world of thought, and that form of their own imagination they worship; when the fact is that the imagined form is finite and the human mind is infinite. Surely the infinite is greater than the finite, for imagination is accidental while the mind is essential; surely the essential is greater than the accidental.

Therefore consider: All the sects and peoples worship their own thought; they create a god in their own minds and acknowledge him to be the creator of all things, when that form is a superstition -- thus people adore and worship imagination.

That Essence of the Divine Entity and the Unseen of the unseen is holy above imagination and is beyond thought. Consciousness doth not reach It. Within the capacity of comprehension of a produced reality that Ancient Reality cannot be contained. It is a different world; from it there is no information; arrival thereat is impossible; attainment thereto is prohibited and inaccessible. This much is known: It exists and Its existence is certain and proven -- but the condition is unknown.


~ Abdu'l-Baha
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I know for Baha'is we don't have an anthropomorphic view of God so it rises above the gender of language... I also think the following is important to consider.. that the Essence of God is unknown to us...

All the people have formed a god in the world of thought, and that form of their own imagination they worship; when the fact is that the imagined form is finite and the human mind is infinite. Surely the infinite is greater than the finite, for imagination is accidental while the mind is essential; surely the essential is greater than the accidental.

Therefore consider: All the sects and peoples worship their own thought; they create a god in their own minds and acknowledge him to be the creator of all things, when that form is a superstition -- thus people adore and worship imagination.

That Essence of the Divine Entity and the Unseen of the unseen is holy above imagination and is beyond thought. Consciousness doth not reach It. Within the capacity of comprehension of a produced reality that Ancient Reality cannot be contained. It is a different world; from it there is no information; arrival thereat is impossible; attainment thereto is prohibited and inaccessible. This much is known: It exists and Its existence is certain and proven -- but the condition is unknown.


~ Abdu'l-Baha

Well, "It exists". We appear to be in agreement on the use of the pronoun. But now I gotta ask, how can you say "It's existence is certain and proven", especially if it is "beyond thought"?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"There is a rock in my shoe" is a good sentence to demonstrate how gender is always present in Spanish.
Spanish isn't the best example here, IMO. A better example would be e.g., Hebrew, where the dictionary form of a verb is the 3rd person masculine (i.e., verbs have gender) or the male lexemes in IE languages that are grammatically "female", or Navajo where verbs have only two genders: neuter and not neuter.
 
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Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Unfortunately in our language an "it" is just that...an "it".. has no personality ... no nobility... very little significance. Try referring to your love one as an "it" and see how far you'll get!

How about the "Transcendent"? That might go down well with a loved one too. ;)
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I would say the direct experience of meditative states, from which religious assumptions are made.
True, but I would also add advanced souls that take incarnation with the mission to teach genuinely exist in the Indian/Hindu tradition. (One I know of I believe is beyond all reasonable doubt.)
 
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arthra

Baha'i
Well, "It exists". We appear to be in agreement on the use of the pronoun. But now I gotta ask, how can you say "It's existence is certain and proven", especially if it is "beyond thought"?


In my view the proofs are not say available in the form of a geometric explanation that can be demonstrated in "words"... When you "know" something you may only be able to generally or subjectevily describe it and then only in part. Our thought and language has limits by the very nature of definition.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
In my view the proofs are not say available in the form of a geometric explanation that can be demonstrated in "words"... When you "know" something you may only be able to generally or subjectevily describe it and then only in part. Our thought and language has limits by the very nature of definition.

IOW, proofs are subjective. Then how do you communicate Baha'i, since language uses objective definitions--their absence making words useless and not even words, by definition?
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Would the "play" be theatrical as in an act? A dramatic play strikes as being false/impure/vain .. an act and not the pure/real thing. I would think that anything dramatic or of an act/pretend would be not of "God/Brahman."
Brahman has no need to act in any way, it is our perception that makes us think so - there is some action, there is creation, there is death. This is known as 'maya' at our level of reality. It sure is false. At the absolute level of reality there is none.
Where did that revelation come from?
It is no revelation. It is analysis and science.
Unfortunately in our language an "it" is just that...an "it".. has no personality ... no nobility... very little significance. Try referring to your love one as an "it" and see how far you'll get!
Why must it have a personality? Why cannot it be the source of all personalities, right from Buddha to Pol Pot, from a tiger to a cow, from a leaf to a stone? Brahman constitutes the universe and all things contained in it. Is that not significant? Does not help to love it, it does not demand servitude. You are yourself 'it' as is everything else. As we say "Tat twam asi" (That is what you are).
Yeah "It" doesn't make it for most of us... Our language has limits but I think we address the Supreme Being in many ways better than "it".
Why does it have to be a being, a Supreme Being? Why it cannot be like 'physical energy' which we know makes up the whole universe, seen and unseen? The language has no limits, but minds do have limits.
 
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arthra

Baha'i
Why cannot it be the source of all personalities, right from Buddha to Pol Pot,


Would you indeed place a Pol Pot on the same level as Guatama the Buddha?


IOW, proofs are subjective. Then how do you communicate Baha'i, since language uses objective definitions--their absence making words useless and not even words, by definition?

I was referring to the Essence of God.. From the quote:

"That Essence of the Divine Entity and the Unseen of the unseen is holy above imagination and is beyond thought..."

God has attributes as well as essence... Attributes are like the light or heat of the sun...measurable.

Manifestations of God (with an Unknowable Essence) such as Krishna, the Buddha, Christ, Muhammad reflect the attributes to humanity in the form of needed teachings. There is really one religion of God that has manifested itself down through the ages through the Manifestations.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Would you indeed place a Pol Pot on the same level as Guatama the Buddha?
Yes, that is the 'advaita' position. What constituted Buddha was not different from what constituted Pol Pot - Hydrogen, Oxygen, Carbon, Calcium and other trace elements. The five 'skandhas' as Buddha said.
I would say the direct experience of meditative states, from which religious assumptions are made.
Not only that, Spiny. One does not need to reject the findings of science.
 
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