It's not about terrorists, it's about theocracy

[icehorse]

It strikes me that in thread after thread people bring up Islamic terrorism, and then others respond with various reasons why terrorism is a bad indicator of Islam.

From my perspective, terrorism is a bit of a red herring, a distraction. What bothers me about Islam is that there are about 500 million Muslims in the world (maybe more), who think that we all ought to be governed by theocracy.

I think theocracies are mostly horrible, and are in direct conflict with secularism and humanism. While secularism isn't perfect, I think it's far better than theocracy.

So, who wants to live in a theocratic state? That's what I think the debate should be about.

 

[Riverwolf]

While I'm 100% in favor of secular politics, I do wanna say something.

It's important to consider that our culture is inherently rebellious. We put immense value in what we "want", and in having the "freedom" to "choose" that thing we "want", and perceive that anyone who tells us we can't have what we "want" is just an oppressor.

 

[FearGod]

It strikes me that in thread after thread people bring up Islamic terrorism, and then others respond with various reasons why terrorism is a bad indicator of Islam.

From my perspective, terrorism is a bit of a red herring, a distraction. What bothers me about Islam is that there are about 500 million Muslims in the world (maybe more), who think that we all ought to be governed by theocracy.

I think theocracies are mostly horrible, and are in direct conflict with secularism and humanism. While secularism isn't perfect, I think it's far better than theocracy.

So, who wants to live in a theocratic state? That's what I think the debate should be about.

From where did you get that figure that 500 millions wanted to be governed by theocracy?

 

[Quintessence]

It's important to consider that our culture is inherently rebellious. We put immense value in what we "want", and in having the "freedom" to "choose" that thing we "want", and perceive that anyone who tells us we can't have what we "want" is just an oppressor.

And then the capital irony is that to cultures who do not share these values, we are an oppressor. American arrogance is something I find terribly bothersome. Many of my people seem to think that our way should be the way. With that sort of attitude, it shouldn't come as a shocker that some areas of the world call us bullies and don't like what we're demanding of them. We're not respecting their right to have their own ways, and instead we aim to culturally homogenize and destroy their ways.

 

[Riverwolf]

And then the capital irony is that to cultures who do not share these values, we are an oppressor. American arrogance is something I find terribly bothersome. Many of my people seem to think that our way should be the way. With that sort of attitude, it shouldn't come as a shocker that some areas of the world call us bullies and don't like what we're demanding of them. We're not respecting their right to have their own ways, and instead we aim to culturally homogenize and destroy their ways.

Yeah, because our way is the way of FREEDOM, so we need to make sure that they ONLY stick to our FREEDOM way!

Oh, they want to live some other way? That's just 'cause they're BRAINWASHED! We need to TEACH them how wrong they are, by FORCE if necessary, so that they have FREEDOM!

*sarcasm over*

American imperialism is seriously one of the most disgusting and terrifying forces in this world, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[icehorse]

Yeah, because our way is the way of FREEDOM, so we need to make sure that they ONLY stick to our FREEDOM way!

Oh, they want to live some other way? That's just 'cause they're BRAINWASHED! We need to TEACH them how wrong they are, by FORCE if necessary, so that they have FREEDOM!

*sarcasm over*

American imperialism is seriously one of the most disgusting and terrifying forces in this world, as far as I'm concerned.

Can we perhaps distinguish between western imperialism and secularism?

 

[icehorse]

From where did you get that figure that 500 millions wanted to be governed by theocracy?

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

 

[Riverwolf]

Can we perhaps distinguish between western imperialism and secularism?

There absolutely is a distinction. I'm all for secularism.

What I oppose is the notion that secularism needs to be spread to the rest of the world. I see that as not terribly different than the notion that theocracy needs to be spread to the rest of the world.

However, allow me to say another thing to consider. As a Westerner who was raised with, and also holds dear, the aforementioned culture of rebellion, I don't want to live in a theocracy. However, I wouldn't mind living in Japan. And since Tenno Heika is technically a deity in Shinto, wouldn't Japan technically qualify as a sort of constitutional theocracy?

 

[Sakeenah]

Yeah, because our way is the way of FREEDOM, so we need to make sure that they ONLY stick to our FREEDOM way!

Oh, they want to live some other way? That's just 'cause they're BRAINWASHED! We need to TEACH them how wrong they are, by FORCE if necessary, so that they have FREEDOM!

*sarcasm over*

American imperialism is seriously one of the most disgusting and terrifying forces in this world, as far as I'm concerned.

And then the capital irony is that to cultures who do not share these values, we are an oppressor. American arrogance is something I find terribly bothersome. Many of my people seem to think that our way should be the way. With that sort of attitude, it shouldn't come as a shocker that some areas of the world call us bullies and don't like what we're demanding of them. We're not respecting their right to have their own ways, and instead we aim to culturally homogenize and destroy their ways.

I wish there was a I like this a milion times button.

 

[Sakeenah]

It strikes me that in thread after thread people bring up Islamic terrorism, and then others respond with various reasons why terrorism is a bad indicator of Islam.

From my perspective, terrorism is a bit of a red herring, a distraction. What bothers me about Islam is that there are about 500 million Muslims in the world (maybe more), who think that we all ought to be governed by theocracy.

I think theocracies are mostly horrible, and are in direct conflict with secularism and humanism. While secularism isn't perfect, I think it's far better than theocracy.

So, who wants to live in a theocratic state? That's what I think the debate should be about.

It's 1.6 bilion muslims..

 

[idav]

While I'm 100% in favor of secular politics, I do wanna say something.

It's important to consider that our culture is inherently rebellious. We put immense value in what we "want", and in having the "freedom" to "choose" that thing we "want", and perceive that anyone who tells us we can't have what we "want" is just an oppressor.

Yeah pretty much, the liberal way is to allow people the freedom to do what they want to an extent. The limitation is when it interferes with what we consider basic human rights. The secular state in mexico as well as secular ideologies of the US are examples of allowing any religion and trying to keep religion from direct political influence. Like with Mexico even the 99 percent of Catholics did not want "the church" controlling laws since the 1800's, for very good reason no doubt.

Having any Abrahmic religion controlling the government is a sure fire way to lose freedom of what we want. Look how much US struggles even having freedom of religion, people try and make laws based on biblical that inherently are a bit bigoted in nature and end up being unfruitful for women, unbelievers, or people of various orientation.

 

[FearGod]

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/...ligion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

I don't know how they were able to get such number, how many persons they did ask
per country and then making an estimation won't make it real, anyway even if they wanted
theocracy it doesn't mean that they wanted the others to have it, IOW if one law warns
the robber of cutting hand then it doesn't need to be the case for the Japanese.

 

[FearGod]

It's 1.6 bilion muslims..

No, he meant 500 millions of them wanted a theocratic state.

 

[buddhist]

So, who wants to live in a theocratic state? That's what I think the debate should be about.

Sure, as long as "I'm" at the head of that theocracy.

 

[Riverwolf]

Yeah pretty much, the liberal way is to allow people the freedom to do what they want to an extent. The limitation is when it interferes with what we consider basic human rights. The secular state in mexico as well as secular ideologies of the US are examples of allowing any religion and trying to keep religion from direct political influence. Like with Mexico even the 99 percent of Catholics did not want "the church" controlling laws since the 1800's, for very good reason no doubt.

Having any Abrahmic religion controlling the government is a sure fire way to lose freedom of what we want. Look how much US struggles even having freedom of religion, people try and make laws based on biblical that inherently are a bit bigoted in nature and end up being unfruitful for women, unbelievers, or people of various orientation.

Forget Abrahamic religions, they're picked on all the time. I'm going to pick on my own religion, because the current situation makes it an easy target.

For those who don't know, I'm a Heathen. That basically means I worship the Germanic Gods (Woden, Thunor, etc.), and hold to many Germanic concepts (frith, orlay, wyrd, etc.) I do NOT want a Heathen government. At freaking ALL. Especially now, when Heathenry is so attractive to far-right, nationalistic sentiments. A Heathen government at this time could very well be fascist, especially if they try to implement something akin to Theodish Belief (a form of Heathenry that emphasizes strong adherance to historical accuracy, as well as Tribalism.)

 

[Shadow Wolf]

However, allow me to say another thing to consider. As a Westerner who was raised with, and also holds dear, the aforementioned culture of rebellion, I don't want to live in a theocracy. However, I wouldn't mind living in Japan. And since Tenno Heika is technically a deity in Shinto, wouldn't Japan technically qualify as a sort of constitutional theocracy?

The thing I see the most easily when it comes to a Secular State compared to a Theocracy is that American is officially secular, yet it has far more Church interference than many of the officially religious European nations. It bothers me when politicians run on campaigns of promising to install their own religious policy as official state law. It should never happen in a nation where our very first right states we have both freedom of and from religion, but in reality the Church is deciding way too much legal policy and forcing those who believe otherwise to adhere to a religious dogma they do not believe in.

 

[Riverwolf]

The thing I see the most easily when it comes to a Secular State compared to a Theocracy is that American is officially secular, yet it has far more Church interference than many of the officially religious European nations. It bothers me when politicians run on campaigns of promising to install their own religious policy as official state law. It should never happen in a nation where our very first right states we have both freedom of and from religion, but in reality the Church is deciding way too much legal policy and forcing those who believe otherwise to adhere to a religious dogma they do not believe in.

Well, the "from religion" is more an inference that I think has sometimes been taken a bit too far, but yes. America is very, very influenced by Christianity.

Compare that with, say, Norway. Norway has a State Church. But from what I've seen, they practice secularism far better than we do!

American secularism is, in many places (not all), little more than lip-service.

 

[idav]

I don't know how they were able to get such number, how many persons they did ask
per country and then making an estimation won't make it real, anyway even if they wanted
theocracy it doesn't mean that they wanted the others to have it, IOW if one law warns
the robber of cutting hand then it doesn't need to be the case for the Japanese.

Are you really arguing that Muslims don't generally want to subjugate themselves to sharia law? I mean I wouldn't blame them but is this really the case?

 

[idav]

Forget Abrahamic religions, they're picked on all the time. I'm going to pick on my own religion, because the current situation makes it an easy target.

For those who don't know, I'm a Heathen. That basically means I worship the Germanic Gods (Woden, Thunor, etc.), and hold to many Germanic concepts (frith, orlay, wyrd, etc.) I do NOT want a Heathen government. At freaking ALL. Especially now, when Heathenry is so attractive to far-right, nationalistic sentiments. A Heathen government at this time could very well be fascist, especially if they try to implement something akin to Theodish Belief (a form of Heathenry that emphasizes strong adherance to historical accuracy, as well as Tribalism.)

I guess I'm not sure what you mean by a heathen government. Do you have an example?

American secularism is, in many places (not all), little more than lip-service.

Yes I find this a bit disconcerting to say the least. US may not want to institute sharia law, one because of the constitution kinda being against that sort of thing but some Christians(some states even) would rather rewrite the constitution to allow something similar to let "God", or the bible rather, into the government.

 

[FearGod]

Are you really arguing that Muslims don't generally want to subjugate themselves to sharia law? I mean I wouldn't blame them but is this really the case?

Depending who applies it, for example in Jordan many women drive cars and we don't
have problem with it, my cousin is a teacher and studied religion in the university and
his 2 daughters have their own cars, so our society won't accept putting ban on women,
they're humans as men and they have the right to drive the car if they wish.