It's said Jesus' sacrificed himself to save us...

[Mycroft]

...but then it says in the bible that on the 3rd day he rose into heaven.


So where the hell is the sacrifice?

One might argue that he sacrificed his earthly body and yet...

"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." - Mark 14:38

So god clearly didn't think that much of the flesh to make losing it a sacrifice.

 

[Awoon]

This is what happens when there is only One source to rely on...ie The Holy Bible which is interpreted by the Bible believers. They cant verify the Month, Day, Year of the death of Jesus outside the Bible. They can not tell us what exactly happened to ALL the NT characters after they disappeared from the pages of the Bible.

 

[GoodbyeDave]

It's very difficult to make sense of it all.

The idea of atonement in the western chuches is weird. Jesus suffers a punishment on our behalf? Where's the justice in that? The eastern chuches say he became man so that men could become divine. Where's the logical connection?

If his death made people better off, then earlier generations were unjustly treated. If it didn't, what was the point?

 

[Mycroft]

Jesus suffers a punishment on our behalf?

Not my behalf. Even if they believed he existed at all, I would refuse any notion of original sin.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

It's very difficult to make sense of it all.

The idea of atonement in the western chuches is weird. Jesus suffers a punishment on our behalf? Where's the justice in that? The eastern chuches say he became man so that men could become divine. Where's the logical connection?

If his death made people better off, then earlier generations were unjustly treated. If it didn't, what was the point?

My understanding of it is that God decided that there had to be laws, but they turned out to be too inflexible. People kept sinning, like all the time.

You could atone for breaking those laws by making a blood sacrifice, but herdsmen couldn't keep up with the sin atonement demand, thus artificially raising the price of livestock in the open market.

Atonement was only possible for those who could afford the livestock, basically a rich man's game. Having everyone separate from God, except the rich, was annoying. All dinner parties, and snobbery, and whatnot.

God decided to scrap the whole thing. But since he's god and god doesn't ever make mistakes, he created a son named Jesus. He also made Jesus poor, and told him to make speeches about how poor people were awesome, just to make everyone at heaven's dinner parties angry.

Then, he made sure that the poor guy was sacrificed, and used the concept as a cosmic loophole. Jesus became the scapegoat that absolved everyone's lawbreaking, not just those who could afford to sacrifice perfectly good farm animals.

Now everyone could be with God, poor and rich alike. Not only does god save face, he makes sure he's referred to as a loving god, because the sacrifice was actually him, or his son. Or something.

Good PR either way.

 

[JayJayDee]

It's very difficult to make sense of it all.

It is most especially hard to understand when Christendom makes a complete mess of the whole thing. There are so many introduced ideas that all conflict, so how can anyone get to the bottom of it...talk about confusion!

The idea of atonement in the western chuches is weird. Jesus suffers a punishment on our behalf? Where's the justice in that? The eastern chuches say he became man so that men could become divine. Where's the logical connection?

There is no logical connection in any of it. People are so busy gorging themselves on chocolate and hot cross buns that they have no idea what it's all about.

"Atonement" is literally "at-one-ment"...one action cancels out the other.
How does the sacrificing of Jesus' life "atone" for the life that Adam forfeited?

Simple. The law of God stated that equivalency was required to settle a debt or to pay for a crime. God's law was "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life".....so when Adam lost his perfect life by disobeying his Creator, only another equivalent life could be offered in "atonement". Since Adam's sin resulted in imperfection or defects in his genetics, (the original word for "sin" was an archery term meaning to "miss the mark") only an equivalent (perfect, sinless) life could be offered in exchange to cancel the debt and fulfill the law, thereby rescuing Adam's children, subject to sin (imperfection) through no fault on their part. This is why "the flesh is weak". The strength of our spirit is the only thing that can conquer the weakness of the flesh.

If his death made people better off, then earlier generations were unjustly treated. If it didn't, what was the point?

Time is our enemy here on earth. When we understand that the Creator and those who inhabit the spirit realm are timeless beings, not bound by earth's time limitations, we can begin to comprehend that because the first rebel was not human, that the issue is a universal one, fought on universal ground in universal time.

We are not the primary objects of this issue. The first rebel was a powerful spirit being who challenged God for sovereign rule over the earth and mankind. He claimed that God was not the right one to tell us how to live...that he would be the better choice as god and ruler. In order to settle the issue once and for all, God allowed the devil a free hand to prove himself as a god and also as a ruler over mankind, promoting independent thinking and self determination. We are living in the end result of the devil's rulership. Can we not see his stamp on everything? Can we not see the evil in the earth growing steadily as time goes on. Are we not appalled that the heinous acts of inhumanity are demonstrating evil on a scale that should not exist in this age of knowledge and civilisation?

At the end of this time period, all living beings who are endowed with free will, will have made their choices about who they accept as their god and who they will accept as ruler over them.

If you know what's going on, you can see clearly that now the world is in the same state now as it was in the days of Noah. Jesus said that just as people refused to listen to Noah's warning back then, they would do so again before he comes to end the devil's rulership once and for all. (Matt 24:36-39; Dan 2:44)

What is accomplished by God's permission of satan's rulership?

Humans get to see firsthand what happens to the world when they reject God's laws and refuse to surrender their own will to his. The abuse of free will is what got us into this mess. Doing things "our" way has never worked. We have tried every conceivable form of self rule, but none of them work for the benefit of all......why? Because power corrupts, every time. We are not designed to rule ourselves.....we are designed to be ruled by God. (Jer 10:23)

All intelligent creatures are given opportunity to make choices about whom they will obey and whom they will serve as sovereign over them....both in heaven and on earth. The outcomes for both positions is clearly stated so no one can cry foul. We are given the choice....obey God and live...disobey God and lose your life.

Legal precedents are created by allowing things to come to their natural conclusion. No one can accuse God of not allowing humans and angels enough time to see the folly of trying to do things their way. This will mean that no intelligent being will ever be able to rebel against the rightness of God's proven rulership, ever again. Precedents create the basis for all future judgment. No rebel will ever disturb the peace of others again.

Free will is retained as the wonderful gift it was meant to be, rather than the curse it became when humans and angels abused it....and God can get on with his purpose for the rest of forever unhindered.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

...but then it says in the bible that on the 3rd day he rose into heaven.


So where the hell is the sacrifice?

One might argue that he sacrificed his earthly body and yet...

"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." - Mark 14:38

So god clearly didn't think that much of the flesh to make losing it a sacrifice.

Good question. In biblical terms the sacrifice of blood and burning of flesh is pleasing to god; like incense it is mind-affecting; it helps god to enter an alter state of reality. In this case it's an altered state where he is less prone to destroy and more likely to forgive the one that made the offering for whatever transgress he presented the offering.

However, no offering is sufficient to alter gods mentality that he would accept a POS like you to be in his presence; accept the sacrifice of the perfect, i.e. the sacrifice of divinity itself, his only begotten son, himself. So if god allows man to kill god, and bleed him, and cover themselves in his blood, then he can't tell filth like you from himself. Therefore he will allow you in his presence because you are covered (candy coated) in the his own blood.

Simple. Isn't it?

 

[Vishvavajra]

The idea that Jesus was a human sacrifice to atone for humanity's sin is a philosophical theory that appeared some 1000 years after Christianity arose. The most common versions that one encounters in Western Christianity (i.e. Catholicism and Protestantism) can all be traced back to a monk named Anselm in the 12th century. The idea that Jesus bore humanity's guilt in our place is a permutation of that, and it was only developed about 400 years ago. Those ideas are simply not what the authors of the Christian scriptures had in mind, as they hadn't come close to being invented yet.

But atonement theory in general is an extremely troubled field. All of the theories are meant to account for why Jesus had to die, yet all of them have serious problems. New theories have come about in order to cover the problems of older theories, but those newer theories introduced new problems. Meantime, nobody stopped to ask why Jesus's death had to be significant in itself, or the whole point of everything; they just started from that assumption and then worked backwards to figure out how. As a result there's a whole lot of nonsense.

Here's a blog post from a pastor who doesn't believe in atonement theory as such: "God Did Not Kill Jesus on the Cross for Our Sins."

I'm inclined to agree with him that it's a fruitless field. Here's my favorite quote on the subject from a different post:

Atonement teaches us that God solves problems with violence.

That is not the God I hear Jesus teaching us about.

And frankly, worshiping a vengeful, violent God (even if it comes from loving reasons) leads to fear and violence and guilt.

That’s simply not the God I learned about from the teachings of Jesus.

 

[outhouse]

So where the hell is the sacrifice?

Mythology is what it is.

BUT, its my opinion an Aramaic Galilean gave his life fighting the Roman oppression and Hellenistic corruption in the temple.

His perceived selfless actions resonate still today, whether you like it or not.

 

[psychoslice]

The story of Jesus sacrificing himself to me is our own story, we need to sacrifice ourselves to become a new self, our spiritual self, or our realization that we are all one in God, or one in the Source.

 

[Bunyip]

Yeah, I see your point. It was more sacrificing his long weekend, then his life. Immortality and sacrificing your life for our sins are mutually exclusive properties.

 

[outhouse]

The story of Jesus sacrificing himself to me is our own story, we need to sacrifice ourselves to become a new self, our spiritual self, or our realization that we are all one in God, or one in the Source.

metaphors and allegory are important aspects of the authors, it was their intention

 

[psychoslice]

metaphors and allegory are important aspects of the authors, it was their intention

Yes I agree, and in that it makes much more sense.

 

[Unification]

It's very difficult to make sense of it all.

The idea of atonement in the western chuches is weird. Jesus suffers a punishment on our behalf? Where's the justice in that? The eastern chuches say he became man so that men could become divine. Where's the logical connection?

If his death made people better off, then earlier generations were unjustly treated. If it didn't, what was the point?

One has to view Jesus as not a literal human individual but as something objectively more and personified as.
God(light/consciousness/spirit/life) did come in the flesh, the reason we all have conscious life. God is not separate from God's creation. Spirit resides bodily meaning we exist/are alive and all reside in a physical body that's not our own to carry out creation. Forgiveness of sins means that the universe/nature/God is perfect and balanced and while we are not perfect, and very imbalanced... We would be completely consumed by an all eternal Spirit the moment we messed up. The reason we are not is because of the physical body that we reside in composed of blood, spirit, everything else. It allows to us to exist and carry out creation because we are loved and forgiven.

 

[Unification]

...but then it says in the bible that on the 3rd day he rose into heaven.


So where the hell is the sacrifice?

One might argue that he sacrificed his earthly body and yet...

"Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." - Mark 14:38

So god clearly didn't think that much of the flesh to make losing it a sacrifice.

Dying "in" Christ and rising "in" Christ occurs "in" our physical bodies where we are consciously alive(spirit).
In essence, Jesus is all humans. Takes a great leap of faith "in" ourselves to change from a fractured mind to a renewed mind of higher conscious/awareness.

 

[Unification]

Not my behalf. Even if they believed he existed at all, I would refuse any notion of original sin.

Thank God Adam and Eve(not real people) ate the fruit (not a literal Apple) so we can experience life.

 

[Marisa]

If moral agency is a sin then sign me up. I like being able to judge (by it's own standard) that which demands I enslave myself to it. Keeps me from making tragic mistakes.

 

[Unification]

If moral agency is a sin then sign me up. I like being able to judge (by it's own standard) that which demands I enslave myself to it. Keeps me from making tragic mistakes.

The subconscious is also what Jesus referred to as the kingdom “within” you. The key word is “within.” In order to have a true kingdom of peace and tranquility, the subconscious and the conscious must be integrated. That means we must become aware of what our waking consciousness is dwelling on. Awareness of what we may enslave ourselves to in mental prison (hell) is awesome. To know thyself.

 

[atpollard]

So where the hell is the sacrifice?

You would clearly benefit from a little reading on the details of a Roman flogging and Crucifixion.
If you cannot see the 'sacrifice' in the only innocent man willingly suffering that for the welfare of the guilty people ... then only prayer will enable you to see.

(It is not irrational to believe that it never happened, but to believe that it happened but crucifixion isn't that big of a deal ... that is odd.)

 

[Mycroft]

Dying "in" Christ and rising "in" Christ occurs "in" our physical bodies where we are consciously alive(spirit).
In essence, Jesus is all humans. Takes a great leap of faith "in" ourselves to change from a fractured mind to a renewed mind of higher conscious/awareness.

Dying and then coming back to life three days later to become an immortal superbeing ain't no sacrifice. Sacrifice requires loss, not gain.