I've Been Thinking About Predestination Again

[Estro Felino]

Whatever they choose, they couldn't have chosen otherwise. In this sense I would say we are all predestined.

Predestined to what?
Nobody forces us to get married, for example.
And yet so many people get married.
They are predestined to marriage?

 

[Koldo]

Predestined to what?
Nobody forces us to get married, for example.
And yet so many people get married.
They are predestined to marriage?

Predestined to do whatever they do.
There is always a will that is gonna take precedence and make you act in a given way.
You are a slave to your will and at the same time you are your will.

 

[samtonga43]

Numerous times the scriptures say that whosoever believes will be saved and receive eternal life.

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16
Hello, InChrist. Is it your opinion that baptism is essential?

 

[InChrist]

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:16
Hello, InChrist. Is it your opinion that baptism is essential?

No, not for salvation. The scriptures are clear that salvation is through faith in Christ alone. It’s not wise to isolate any single verse or passage. We discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Baptism is a step of obedience after one is saved by Jesus Christ. Even Mark 16:16 reiterates the necessity of believing for salvation twice in the verse, not baptism.

 

[samtonga43]

No, not for salvation. The scriptures are clear that salvation is through faith in Christ alone. It’s not wise to isolate any single verse or passage. We discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Baptism is a step of obedience after one is saved by Jesus Christ. Even Mark 16:16 reiterates the necessity of believing for salvation twice in the verse, not baptism.

As I thought. Thanks.

 

[Brian2]

No, not for salvation. The scriptures are clear that salvation is through faith in Christ alone. It’s not wise to isolate any single verse or passage. We discern what it teaches by first filtering it through what we know the Bible teaches on the subject. In the case of baptism and salvation, the Bible is clear that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Baptism is a step of obedience after one is saved by Jesus Christ. Even Mark 16:16 reiterates the necessity of believing for salvation twice in the verse, not baptism.

I would say that for a Christian salvation is through faith in Jesus and getting to know Jesus.
For a non Christian, they need to go through Jesus at the judgement to get to the Father, and Jesus may be merciful to them.
All are damned because all have sinned and need forgiveness, and Jesus can give that forgiveness at the judgement. It is not just a matter of separation Christians from non Christians.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

The question of predestination remains one of the most serious stumbling blocks for me in regards to the coherence of Christianity. To say that faith is open to all while maintaining that faith is given only to some creates a serious contradiction in my view. It is a contradiction because if faith is a grace given to those whom God elects then the non-elect are faithless by necessity rather than choice. And to punish people for what they could not have otherwise been does not seem just to me.

God has the power to elect everyone. If God so chose he could guarantee the salvific faith of every human being but instead chooses to do so only for a select few leaving all others to their inevitable damnation. Some say God does this so as to maximize his glory. The elect showcase his mercy while the reprobate showcase his justice. This makes sense to a degree but it commits us to the view that God created the world and all sentient beings simply to make a point of his glory. Which for some reason cannot be fully appreciated unless some are punished eternally. This comes across to me as almost Lovecraftian in implication. The universe as ruled by an omnipotent deity who for his own edification requires the eternal torment of some of the very beings he himself created and claims to love. Are we to believe such is the true face of God?

If Christianity is true then I don't see how we can say God is just (yet alone loving) unless everyone has a genuine shot at salvation. The Catholic Church for instance insists that no one is predestined to Hell. But this insistence is sophistry if only some are predestined to Heaven. I have used an example of two drowning children before. To save one and not the other, that is to not intervene and permit the other to drown, is as active a choice as to save one and hold down the other underwater until they have drowned. I don't see a meaningful moral difference between the two.

What a great question. I tend to agree with this.

My answer is a rather simple one...Revelation 3:20 cannot be clearer on this question of salvation for all.

New International Version
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

The above verse is further explained in the following:

John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

 

[samtonga43]

What a great question. I tend to agree with this.

My answer is a rather simple one...Revelation 3:20 cannot be clearer on this question of salvation for all.

New International Version
Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.

This verse from Revelation says it all, for me.
First, notice who it is who opens the door.
I believe He won't come in unless we open up and allow Him to enter.
But we won't open up if we don't hear Him knocking.
And we cannot hear Him knocking if we don't listen.
And we cannot listen if we are listening instead to the raucous noise of our selfish egos.