ChieftheCef
Active Member
I don't remember it. Does anyone know anything about that, I think the argument relates reproduction and whatever nonlife does, how they both evolve, and how they both sustain themselves..
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I've heard a way Nothing is also Everything but
- Thread starter ChieftheCef
- Start date
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
No "thing" can refer to the idea that "things" exist because the consciousness takes "everything" and with narrow senses and a discriminating mind creates a reality that the conscious being can interact with. Without "things" there is everything, undifferentiated. No-thing is the undefined everything.
ChieftheCef
Active Member
Dude, that's so clear. Are you a guru?
ChieftheCef
Active Member
Is there anything else?
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
I take it my response wasn't exactly what you were looking for?
ChieftheCef
Active Member
Not even kind of. I'm actually looking for every argument I can find for both God being a sort of combination of Nothing and Everything. Yours counts. Want to hear more?
Guitar's Cry
Disciple of Pan
Of course!
We could say that 'God' is 'no-thing' and 'every-thing' simultaneously, since it is out of the essence of spirit or consciousness (space) that all 'things' are formed, so a primordial 'nothingness' pervades all that exists, within which all things appear. There is ever the invisible and visible, the intangible and tangible co-existing and interpenetrating one another. The whole or totality of life within this corporeal world includes the incorporeal,....essence, substance and forms. The 'I AM' of pure awareness includes 'no-thing' and 'every-thing',....and more to infinity.
--------------o
I don't know what "nonlife" is, so can't help you there.
ChieftheCef
Active Member
Point 1: a sort of warning: Monotheism is a psychopath’s lie for power
I would like to give a case of why Monotheism is a lie, and why Panentheistic Polytheism is correct.
Akhenaten invented monotheism in a practical way because the people, and history, had not known monotheism.
He had killed his siblings who had been up for the throne. Then when he eventually got it he used monotheism to gain power over the priesthood.
The monotheism had gained him power by his saying he was above Egypt and the Priesthood who before then held a good, integral sway as he was the highest priest of the Aten(his coincidentally timed inspiration from the otherwise new to humanity and only god) who heard Aten directly. He changed everything, but after his death everything changed back.
He lied and killed his competitor for the thrones, his brothers and sister. It was just a power grab, which was kept up by lies and threats of violence like we see in today's monotheism.
But there is a more grander, more mysterious "God" we can see in Nature. The one Polytheist/Panentheists like Khemet, the Egyptians, and Hermes Trismegistus taught about.
Point 2 Nature is alive and it is what we understand as God
Nature takes care of herself (Think Scientifically) as if she is a body. There is her head, Nothingness, Vacuum, Void which is what cares for her body which is her, us, everything, but not her brain. That is nothing, vacuum, space-time, and consciousness, I predict for reasons ahead, a feature of nothingness, scientific space-time. What to an organism would be mere breath, mere extancy.
Everything is able to do as it needs because consciousness is a feature of space-time. Bacteria are able to know what to do to survive, as well as plants, and they react to both pleasure and pain. Every life form is aware enough to act. Only ignorant organisms don't see because they don't want to, which is fine. I believe we pick up consciousness as we move through space, we just borrow it until we inherit being one with Nothingness, aka God, by ending our Great Dream in the Great Sleep (death) and gradually disintegrating back into Nothingness and Nature simultaneously sort of ever presently as atoms and as consciousness is my speculation.
Now consider the Pythagorean Monad, the first prime mover to the Greeks, 0. It means nothing, and this Monad creates everything. It creates multiplicity from one points to two points, a line, to 6 points, 3d shapes. It is how it was created, nothing to everything currently.
Now consider the underlying principle, Brahman. It comes before everything but is intrinsic to everything. It is what it is because it is making greater wholes, such as our Nothing, greater, even by our sheer breath, breathing up all the oxygen so anaerobic, and necessary for our lives, bacteria can thrive and turn wastes into foods for plants and thus foods for us and breathing out carbon dioxide for the plants to breathe. Doing absolutely everything. Even dying as dying returns the body to the soil and thus the plants have food continuing the cycle.
It is making the most of things. Take atoms. They’re mostly taking up empty space but they’re also ever able to turn into greater atoms that have more electrons and protons and neutrons. But they do so by taking electrons from other atoms in the stars bellies that upon death feed life by spewing atoms accrosss the Nebula. But in their absence, there is pluripotential to better diversify the worlds. Atoms are always making the most of things. Everything is making the most of things. Everything is doing what it can. Molecules do the same. They take up little to no space and make the most of everything by sheerly giving their all, an all necessary to Life, and Non-Life Universally who ever evolving coalescing each other in the discordant harmony of a relationship of necessary but complete opposites but one in the same spectrum, seemingly dualmonotheistic phenomena like God and Goddess, Goodness and not Goodness emerge.
Consider the Dao of Daoism. Take how the Dao is in ever flowing condition. It is without thought, without effort. That’s how great stones are withered away, by the sheer nonaction of bits of water colliding with the stone over vast time. Take the ocean, including of everything else, it’s just waving because it has to wave, something fell into the ocean like rain or asteroids or other rocks. It’s just the non-action of Nothingness.
It is born of Wu JI, limitlessness, as the Void is who births Nature!
Understand how planets, and all celestial phenomena including suns and asteroids form by the gravity of space-time, by sheer consequence of the self, by mere extancy, utter flow. And by extancy they are given water from the skies and water seldom if at all escapes. We will discuss more of this later.
Consider Sunyata, a sort of supreme being in Mahayana Buddhism. He is made of emptiness, the Void. He is the Void. So are all of us, as atoms and molecules and compounds and other things. There’s mostly space between those things.
Nothing, as a concept has a noticeable amount of attributes of God in Chritianity and other monotheist doctrines. Attributes such as omnipresence as space-time is present everywhere, transcendence as Nothingness is outside the Universe(s), immanence as The Void is within all things, aseity as the only thing requiring itself is Nothing or in other words Nothing does not require something, Space-time is the only eternal thing, Nothingness, the Void, Space-time is incorporeal, infinity as Space-Time is infinite, POSSIBLY immutable, unchangingness of the Void I do not know. There are potentially others if you hear me out further.
Nature, God, has coerced us to be happy by feeling. And the kinds of things that make us happy are things that support, in some way, our society, infrastructure, eachother and what have you and thus our life because of incentive for pro social behavior by Nature.
Besides this she gives back to where she takes, like with herd animals and grasses and microbes. The herd animals feast tightly packed and trample the ground as they poop. That poop is eaten by bacteria which is then shat and eaten by bacteria and then poops plant food. And the trampling helps as well. Nature takes from the grass and gives back to it, even in it's pain. And as a living being, us being the cells, essentially, God knows themself, as our brain knows our body. And they can operate themselves as they are alive. And so they know everything in the body, subconsciously, and can perform everything in the body, within limitations, not actual omnipotence as if that could be real.
And everything this, perhaps, true goddess does IS beneficial, at least in that it allows for growth. Like with the evolution of the atmosphere that protects us. First anaerobic organisms evolved who reacted violently to oxygen resulting in their death, bringing a mass extinction, then aerobic organisms evolved and ate the oxygen so that anaerobic organisms could flourish and thus we could evolve and exist.
And that weading of organisms killed off, broadly, weak organisms, or organisms not as fit as others, survivors, to their environment. Thus more life becomes more strong as the strong species genes grow in number.
Or the way when you are hurt, physically or mentally, you become more resiliant to the damage.
Or the way volcanoes and forest fires bring great fertility.
The way stars deaths spew their life bearing guts everywhere.
The way death, destruction, decay of all kinds bring something for the environment and thus
you as everything are healthier and thus you as your seemingly solitary (yet marauding home worlds to microfauna) self are better off!
Or the way all of this stuff happens without too much of it at once, just a proper place for life to spring up! Like rain being droplets or stars being eonically old before they die or the way explosions don’t happen very often.
Now the way everything formed from the first insemination of stuff was by sheer gravity a feature of space-time, like their breath is/would be. It clumps gases and dusts together to form nebulas and further clumps together suns, planets, comets and essentially solar systems all at once. Then these gradually evolve into life and us!
This shows the benevolent side of this being, a whole other section of attributes.
Thus there is a form of omnibenevolence inherent in Nature (everything at once including space-time) which is created by Nothing (space-time. We're just meant to be soil eventually, which is good because others will benefit from our becoming soil. Everything is somehow good, as long as you let it be. That does not mean seek badness, but be thankful when it comes because it can, if you allow it, build your character more resilience.
But I know. Life's not actually that great compared to what I allege. But that's because we don't have wellbeing and purpose and critical thinking (sorry for those who do, you can skip this or become better equipped to be happy and purposeful)
First let’s wet the appetite.
Let’s look at what we call Eternal Bliss. First, Nirvana. A state of ultimate bliss from realization. Or Salvation, described often as ultimate happiness. Or Moksha, ultimate bliss by liberation form ignorance again, like Nirvana.
These are all happiness and satisfaction and freedom from falsehood.
There are health benefits for all of what I teach you next. Some of this is the feedback loop of which happiness and health compounds and increases eachother. Some of this is increased ability for the body to function, like with fighting off disease, handling trauma, etc.
Rock, water, not soil (soil is rife with bacteria) but the particles of poop, yes, poop! that compose partially, with the bacteria, soil. Stuff that's been made by humans. Air particles like oxygen. They all evolve and regenerate (that doesn't mean there's not one or two things that we know of in the universe the violate one or either of these) and all are formations of nothing, in fact nothing created everything and nothing is everything! The scientific nothing, space-time, the void, nothingness.
ChieftheCef
Active Member
Now what's the matter? YOu can't be happy in this dangerous but happy world?
First we should contemplate what we want to be, father, mother, scientist, good student, good worker, whatever. Then ask yourself what do I have to do to be what I want to be.
Make as many to every thing you do purposeful in that you are being what you want to be.
Next, you must learn some psychology mixed with advice from scientists that you can find on Coursera under the class name The Science of Wellbeing.
Firstly, it is simple
Be positive within and without (i.e. make the most of things)
Then more complex
Within
Actions
Treat yourself to a variety of things and take in all good you encounter while giving yourself healthy foods such as fruits and nuts and exercising for 30 minutes a day and meditating from 10 to 30 minutes. Material things are necessary, and lavish can be good, but happiness is built with many bricks. They won’t make you very happy by themselves. Material things make us unhappy in small increments if we don’t have them. Seek experiences above unneeded material goods. Our strengths that are appreciated across cultures, that are fulfilling, that are positive for others, and that continue throughout life should be used in a new way as often as you can, maybe separated by days. Try to do work or play that exercises those things. Try to be in the zone while you work, or even play! Seek rewarding challenges but attainable goals, with strong focus and concentration. You will find feelings of serenity, loss of self-conscious, lost sense of time, lack of awareness of physical needs, and utmost focus on the activity, nothing else.
Thoughts
Do not think in comparative terms when they make you look worse off than your peers. Realize we get used to things, so have that variety, and fully take them in when you do them. Believe people can get better at anything, because it’s true. If you don’t when you see yourself failing you won’t grow, you’ll fail harder. For every $1 you make more you need $1.40 to feel as good as the previous indulgence up until about 160,000 dollars. Genes give us 50% of happiness. The other 40% half comes from mostly our thoughts and actions but also 10% from life circumstances.
Without
Help those in need, talk to friends and people you might meet at the store as long as they’re friendly and give gifts to people, even people you don’t know. Interact with friendly animals, children and people. You could even do plants if you realized they actually are alive.
There's two good news with this. One that you don't have to do all of it, just any and gradually do as much as you want to be lastingly happy the amount of your choosing.
The other is that eventually, even without this information, we'll evolve to do these things naturally. Like animals already do.
Most, not new, other life has already figured out the best way to use their operating system. Most of Nature is in flow, in the zone. It's quite possible if space-time is alive, of which Science does not say, but is my speculation, or at least keeping with the fractal has life like qualities including regeneration and protection. It indeed could be alive, in more metaphorical, ways, which makes sense because suns produce wastes until their gestic gift of gas born from nebula run out and go on to give star bearing gases and dusts. Black holes emit matter and particles and stuff at low levels. This thwarts entropy, and as it tends toward less entropy in general to things. They quite probably have, if they are more literally alive, learned great lessons of the sages, like meditation and flow and otherwise how best to operate in their eons of time. In fact most of nature operates as mere breath, in a sort of nonliving-to living flow state, to this maybe alive universe. But that's a time for another debate. Think about this. Flow is essentially doing when you don’t think about it. It can range from breathing and other extancy features to work, being in the zone.
Now you must learn some critical thinking.
Do not judge wisdom until you hear why it is correct, until you have it argued to you. Believe when you see, or are otherwise convinced without feeling but with logic. Question everything from every side you can find to see the truth.
But change your mind when any of this has been shown contrary. You will begin to see things better, with the standing on the shoulders of giants, the taking of perspectives proven to you.
Finally we’ll take a closer look at badness, and how it doesn’t overcome goodness.
Imagine drugs, gambling and sex of all kinds. Most people don’t even do it, most people that do it, which is not most people, play teatoter with it, most of those people don’t do the extremes of them. And most people that do the extremes of them don’t do the unmentionable things. People who use drugs are not typically addicts, typically the drug, even cigarettes, is done so infrequently they won’t have a doctor visit. Most people who are addicted are less "addicted" (there really should be quantifiers for this or whatever) than a junkie, what I say for clarity and lack of wordage. Most people who induldge do so infrequently. This is not to say there is nothing to fear in any of these, but it’s probably gonna be alright as long as we educate people on these drugs, why they're bad, how to properly use them, why not to use them dangerous etc. Don’t let either control you. Don’t let either hinder your worldview and thus your reaction to the world. Research the proper precautions for what you’re going to do if it’s dangerous!
Now think on the grasses and trees. Most of them don’t get eaten, most of them go by their day because nothing happened to them, they’re just too many. Consider the herbivores and predators. There’re fewer predators by necessity and they’re kept that way, within their natural bounds.
Think how suns explode so infrequently, comets come with such time between, that Nature and thus life survives in sheer flow totally and universally, Non-life and Life. Think how it would be if that were not the case. Terrible.
Nature bestows great benefit without taking too great a deficit. She works, and she doesn’t not work too much, and when she does it is for our benefit, it’s something that somehow needed to happen, something good for us.
3 Discovering who we are, consciousness
All of reality is intertwined with each other. One does not exist unless in nature’s discordantly harmonic bounds. Plants need the sun yes, but they need animals too and bacteria and other plants. Everything is related to each other including rocks. We all come from the singular space-time, which inseminated itself with matter and energy and formed that insemination with it’s gravity. To distinguish separate entities from the Void, which is also Everything Else, is noticeably hard because it is all one big thing, God.
We take gravity and space for granted, maybe that points to consciousness, God, to be something fundamental to the universe, a facet or feature of space-time. The brain may be a sort of receiver for the universal consciousness that genes and life experiences sort of change what is picked upby our husk and shows us consciousness, albeit with our brains own flavor.
Everything more or less reacts the same to stimuli. Punch a deer it’ll be pissed, punch an ape and it’ll fight back. Give them gifts, they begin to show love. It is sheerly so universal, it is, and something bad happened to them to make them the opposite. Predictably also to plants who communicate with other plants and mushrooms and trade resources in symbiotic ways. Bacteria presumably do as well as they are aware enough to live. Perhaps our bias as an organism holds ourselves in high regard for sanity, not truth.
Altruism is explained by this. Why would selfish species interact with each other’s selfish selves? Because they are in some sense the same thing, Nature, the Universe, The All, the Monad, God.
If the mind has material origins why do placebos work? There’s physically nothing about them that makes them happen.
Consciousness may get very simple as stuff is simpler, but the simplest way to explain Nature is with consciousness everywhere. And thus we are God and Goddess, Nature and Nothing.
First we should contemplate what we want to be, father, mother, scientist, good student, good worker, whatever. Then ask yourself what do I have to do to be what I want to be.
Make as many to every thing you do purposeful in that you are being what you want to be.
Next, you must learn some psychology mixed with advice from scientists that you can find on Coursera under the class name The Science of Wellbeing.
Firstly, it is simple
Be positive within and without (i.e. make the most of things)
Then more complex
Within
Actions
Treat yourself to a variety of things and take in all good you encounter while giving yourself healthy foods such as fruits and nuts and exercising for 30 minutes a day and meditating from 10 to 30 minutes. Material things are necessary, and lavish can be good, but happiness is built with many bricks. They won’t make you very happy by themselves. Material things make us unhappy in small increments if we don’t have them. Seek experiences above unneeded material goods. Our strengths that are appreciated across cultures, that are fulfilling, that are positive for others, and that continue throughout life should be used in a new way as often as you can, maybe separated by days. Try to do work or play that exercises those things. Try to be in the zone while you work, or even play! Seek rewarding challenges but attainable goals, with strong focus and concentration. You will find feelings of serenity, loss of self-conscious, lost sense of time, lack of awareness of physical needs, and utmost focus on the activity, nothing else.
Thoughts
Do not think in comparative terms when they make you look worse off than your peers. Realize we get used to things, so have that variety, and fully take them in when you do them. Believe people can get better at anything, because it’s true. If you don’t when you see yourself failing you won’t grow, you’ll fail harder. For every $1 you make more you need $1.40 to feel as good as the previous indulgence up until about 160,000 dollars. Genes give us 50% of happiness. The other 40% half comes from mostly our thoughts and actions but also 10% from life circumstances.
Without
Help those in need, talk to friends and people you might meet at the store as long as they’re friendly and give gifts to people, even people you don’t know. Interact with friendly animals, children and people. You could even do plants if you realized they actually are alive.
There's two good news with this. One that you don't have to do all of it, just any and gradually do as much as you want to be lastingly happy the amount of your choosing.
The other is that eventually, even without this information, we'll evolve to do these things naturally. Like animals already do.
Most, not new, other life has already figured out the best way to use their operating system. Most of Nature is in flow, in the zone. It's quite possible if space-time is alive, of which Science does not say, but is my speculation, or at least keeping with the fractal has life like qualities including regeneration and protection. It indeed could be alive, in more metaphorical, ways, which makes sense because suns produce wastes until their gestic gift of gas born from nebula run out and go on to give star bearing gases and dusts. Black holes emit matter and particles and stuff at low levels. This thwarts entropy, and as it tends toward less entropy in general to things. They quite probably have, if they are more literally alive, learned great lessons of the sages, like meditation and flow and otherwise how best to operate in their eons of time. In fact most of nature operates as mere breath, in a sort of nonliving-to living flow state, to this maybe alive universe. But that's a time for another debate. Think about this. Flow is essentially doing when you don’t think about it. It can range from breathing and other extancy features to work, being in the zone.
Now you must learn some critical thinking.
Do not judge wisdom until you hear why it is correct, until you have it argued to you. Believe when you see, or are otherwise convinced without feeling but with logic. Question everything from every side you can find to see the truth.
But change your mind when any of this has been shown contrary. You will begin to see things better, with the standing on the shoulders of giants, the taking of perspectives proven to you.
Finally we’ll take a closer look at badness, and how it doesn’t overcome goodness.
Imagine drugs, gambling and sex of all kinds. Most people don’t even do it, most people that do it, which is not most people, play teatoter with it, most of those people don’t do the extremes of them. And most people that do the extremes of them don’t do the unmentionable things. People who use drugs are not typically addicts, typically the drug, even cigarettes, is done so infrequently they won’t have a doctor visit. Most people who are addicted are less "addicted" (there really should be quantifiers for this or whatever) than a junkie, what I say for clarity and lack of wordage. Most people who induldge do so infrequently. This is not to say there is nothing to fear in any of these, but it’s probably gonna be alright as long as we educate people on these drugs, why they're bad, how to properly use them, why not to use them dangerous etc. Don’t let either control you. Don’t let either hinder your worldview and thus your reaction to the world. Research the proper precautions for what you’re going to do if it’s dangerous!
Now think on the grasses and trees. Most of them don’t get eaten, most of them go by their day because nothing happened to them, they’re just too many. Consider the herbivores and predators. There’re fewer predators by necessity and they’re kept that way, within their natural bounds.
Think how suns explode so infrequently, comets come with such time between, that Nature and thus life survives in sheer flow totally and universally, Non-life and Life. Think how it would be if that were not the case. Terrible.
Nature bestows great benefit without taking too great a deficit. She works, and she doesn’t not work too much, and when she does it is for our benefit, it’s something that somehow needed to happen, something good for us.
3 Discovering who we are, consciousness
All of reality is intertwined with each other. One does not exist unless in nature’s discordantly harmonic bounds. Plants need the sun yes, but they need animals too and bacteria and other plants. Everything is related to each other including rocks. We all come from the singular space-time, which inseminated itself with matter and energy and formed that insemination with it’s gravity. To distinguish separate entities from the Void, which is also Everything Else, is noticeably hard because it is all one big thing, God.
We take gravity and space for granted, maybe that points to consciousness, God, to be something fundamental to the universe, a facet or feature of space-time. The brain may be a sort of receiver for the universal consciousness that genes and life experiences sort of change what is picked upby our husk and shows us consciousness, albeit with our brains own flavor.
Everything more or less reacts the same to stimuli. Punch a deer it’ll be pissed, punch an ape and it’ll fight back. Give them gifts, they begin to show love. It is sheerly so universal, it is, and something bad happened to them to make them the opposite. Predictably also to plants who communicate with other plants and mushrooms and trade resources in symbiotic ways. Bacteria presumably do as well as they are aware enough to live. Perhaps our bias as an organism holds ourselves in high regard for sanity, not truth.
Altruism is explained by this. Why would selfish species interact with each other’s selfish selves? Because they are in some sense the same thing, Nature, the Universe, The All, the Monad, God.
If the mind has material origins why do placebos work? There’s physically nothing about them that makes them happen.
Consciousness may get very simple as stuff is simpler, but the simplest way to explain Nature is with consciousness everywhere. And thus we are God and Goddess, Nature and Nothing.
ChieftheCef
Active Member
Speaking of which, can I tell you guys about coexisting! I think you'll like it so I'll just get started.
Scientifically nothing created everything. Nothing is required for life. Nothing is like Non-Life, which is required for Life but does not require life, everything at once requires space-time (nothing, what's behind all the stuffs, mere vacuum, the playing board if you will) to create it. And it does as one big chain reaction! One singular omnipresent thing.
Indeed, all is composed from no-thing, spawning every-thing
- savor the mystery. I enjoy exploring infinity too, which must have its essence or seed within no-thing ('0') but extends to every possible multiple extension of 'things' (in all space-time), to perhaps no end, as long as any potential or possibility for expansion (multiplicity/relativity) exists. - its a doozy! - no-thing and every-thing comprise the whole.All goes back to basic metaphysics as far as we ascertain substance and form. But there is still a 'monism' underlying the whole strata of things, so a more liberal 'mono-theism' of some sort can be entertained in any case, but differently nuanced....this especially in a more 'pan-entheistic' context. So I enjoy a purview of both 'personal' and 'non-personal' aspects of Deity, since 'God' includes all, while being all. - the 'both/and' here trumps the 'either/or'
All is 'God', but one can converse with and worship any particular persona of 'God' or the 'Goddess' as they so please, and still....as long as the essence is honored within the form, and in relation to All that is, the devotion is replete.
----------------o
ChieftheCef
Active Member
What's that bit at the end?Indeed, all is composed from no-thing, spawning every-thing
All goes back to basic metaphysics as far as we ascertain substance and form. But there is still a 'monism' underlying the whole strata of things, so a more liberal 'mono-theism' of some sort can be entertained in any case, but differently nuanced....this especially in a more 'pan-entheistic' context. So I enjoy a purview of both 'personal' and 'non-personal' aspects of Deity, since 'God' includes all, while being all. - the 'both/and' here trumps the 'either/or'
All is 'God', but one can converse with and worship any particular persona of 'God' or the 'Goddess' as they so please, and still....as long as the essence is honored within the form, and in relation to All that is, the devotion is replete.
----------------o
Play with it
- a pan-en-theistic world-view can embrace 'God' and all his/her forms and personas.....that help? Infinity includes all forms.........
----------o
ChieftheCef
Active Member
Is it a penis? Sorry, I have brain damagePlay with it
Infinity includes all forms.........
----------o
vulcanlogician
Well-Known Member
On the issue of life and nonlife being one, I think Alan Watts has some useful insights:
And on the issue of "Nothing is also everything" I tend to agree with Lauren Hill:
And on the issue of "Nothing is also everything" I tend to agree with Lauren Hill:
ChieftheCef
Active Member
Can you surmise? Excellent flourish
vulcanlogician
Well-Known Member
Surmise? Or summarize? In either case, I'd rather examine Watt's argument and let Lauryn speak for herself.
the this? -------------o
I dont know, its just a little margin i put at the end of my posts to put the bottom index up higher,....a space ratio thing. Just one of my perks lol
---------------o