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James, Son of Joseph, Brother of Jesus

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
One can have a number of excellent reasons for strongly suspecting forgery without being able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a particular individual was responsible for that forgery. This appears to be entirely beyond the grasp of our good friend who naively equates acquittal with the validation he so desperately wants and needs. The kindest approach may be to let him declare victory and move on.
 

Plato

Member
I just happened to see this topic while I was posting on another Easter time hoax in another thread, and just wanted to straighten some facts.
1. The trial was not about the bone box (or ossuary), not about whether it was forged or not, but a 'criminal case only' against Oded Golan and others, charging Oded as being a 'kingpin' of the illegal/ fake antiquities market in the Israeli Mideast a $1 billion/ year business.
2. Oded, rich and powerful and tops in the 'trade' was accused of a 20 year conspiracy of dealing in forged, faked, illegal goods. For the criminal case against him he was accused (with others) of forging the 'James Ossuary', the 'Yoash Tablet', and a pomergranate (he said it came from Solomons Temple), along with a host of other charges.
3. The 'ground man' who said he dug up the fake stuff, Faiz al Amia confessed and was convicted, 2 other co conspirators made deals with the prosecution.
4. Oded's trial started in 2005 and just finished in 2012...Yep..7 years, 1 trial costing the alleged super rich criminal $10's of millions.
5. The court 'convicted' him of...unlicensed antiquity trading, possession of stolen goods/ possession of stolen artifacts, selling artifacts without a license.
6. On the forgery charge the judge (Farkash) said there were so many experts on each side he couldn't tell if it was forged or not, or if Oded did the actually forging, so found him not guilty on that charge. The judge said as far as the ossuary it was up to the scientific/ archeological community to debate for years to come and 'time would tell'.
7. The Israeli Antiquity Authority (IAA), the Israeli Museum, and the majority of scientists have said the 2nd part of the inscription being...'the brother of Jesus'...was added on and is forged (meaning the box has nothing to do with 'the' (or any) Jesus).
8. Oded Golan gets sentenced for his 3 guilty convictions this April 2012...but given the amount of pull and wealth this guy seems to have (tying up a court for 7 years, bankrolling the whole thing, while being out on bond) I wouldn't expect him to get much....But does anyone trust a guy like this is telling the truth???
Here's a link http://huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/1...acquitted-of-antiquities-fraud_n_1344994.html
If it doesn't work just google 'oded golan' go to 2nd article for the facts from Jerusalem.
 
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Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Not sure why you're getting so much hostility over this Ben.

Probably because you had the audacity to start a thread about something that one of the people who's giving you a hard time here already covered. :p

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/129685-james-ossuary-resurrected.html

Sheeze, why do I have to repeat myself so often?

The word for "brother" in the New Testament does not mean strictly "biological brother." It is used interchangeably to mean "brother," "cousin," "kinsman," and "close friend."

Do a word study on the Greek and then get back with me.

For a lot of reasons the word "brother" showing up on an ossuary from that time and place would pretty much have to mean "brother" as in the mutual offspring of at least one parent. [read post #28 in the thread linked above]
 
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McBell

Unbound
Can't you understand plain English, the case of it being a forgery brought those who claimed it was a forgery was thrown out,..dismissed...by the Judge of the Court due to lack of evidence implying forgery.

Do you doubt these legal facts?
I suspect that your own reading comprehension level is somewhat below par.
Especially given that the very article you linked to completely disagrees with your bold empty claims.
Here is the VERY FIRST SENTENCE of the second article in the OP:
Despite the recent verdict of Judge Aharon Farkash of the Jerusalem District Court acquitting accused Israeli forgers Oded Golan and Robert Deutsch, the jury is still very much out on the actual authenticity of the subject antiquities they were accused of forging.
So even the article you quoted disagrees with your bold empty claims...
 

Jayhawker Soule

-- untitled --
Premium Member
Not sure why you're getting so much hostility over this Ben.

Probably because you had the audacity to start a thread about something that one of the people who's giving you a hard time here already covered.
No - because he made a ludicrous and embarrassingly ignorant claim.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
This is a useful site for those interested in the topic.

Thanks for the link, Matthew Kalman reads it as I do....

Israeli Cleared of Forging Jesus' Brother's Burial Box Relic

MATTHEW KALMAN Jerusalem

THE INDEPENDENT Thursday 15 March 2012

A burial box inscribed “James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus” was reprieved from the scrapheap of history yesterday when a Jerusalem judge exonerated the Israeli antiquities collector accused of forging it.

The verdict, delivered by Judge Aharon Farkash in a tiny, crowded courtroom in the Jerusalem District Courthouse, ended a nine-year ordeal for the accused, Oded Golan, 60, but it will do little to extinguish the decade-long scientific controversy over the authenticity of the limestone box, which has raged since it was first displayed to the public at the Royal Ontario Museum in 2002.

If genuine, the burial box, or ossuary, is the first physical artefact yet discovered that might be connected with the family of the historical Jesus Christ.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
Especially given that the very article you linked to completely disagrees with your bold empty claims.

What claims you silly billy, the contents of any links I post are not necessarily my view is. But fwiw, my view is the same as Matthew Kalman... :p

And if you have a different take, go ahead and believe what you will, I mean who really cares...:rolleyes:

Israeli Cleared of Forging Jesus' Brother's Burial Box Relic

MATTHEW KALMAN Jerusalem

THE INDEPENDENT Thursday 15 March 2012

A burial box inscribed “James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus” was reprieved from the scrapheap of history yesterday when a Jerusalem judge exonerated the Israeli antiquities collector accused of forging it.

The verdict, delivered by Judge Aharon Farkash in a tiny, crowded courtroom in the Jerusalem District Courthouse, ended a nine-year ordeal for the accused, Oded Golan, 60, but it will do little to extinguish the decade-long scientific controversy over the authenticity of the limestone box, which has raged since it was first displayed to the public at the Royal Ontario Museum in 2002.

If genuine, the burial box, or ossuary, is the first physical artefact yet discovered that might be connected with the family of the historical Jesus Christ.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
This is a larger excerpt from the linked article from the OP. Perhaps some of the posters missed it but it's an interesting read for those who are interested to know what is known about James and the references from which this knowledge comes. Of course the author's own opinions are given for consideration. I could not post the whole due to the limit, so there is more there is anyone would like to read it all.

James, Son of Joseph, Brother of Jesus

Randy Ingermanson

Who was this man James? We know about him from a number of different sources -- the gospels, the letters of Paul, the book of Acts, the book of James, and the works of Josephus. Not to mention some second-century sources of rather more dubious value.

The gospels tell us that Jesus had four brothers, "James, Joses, Simon, and Judas." (Matthew 13:55, Mark 6:3) These are the English versions of four very common Hebrew names -- Yaakov, Yosi, Shimon, and Yehudah. Likewise, Jesus is the English form of a very common Hebrew name -- Yeshua. Apparently, Mary and Joseph didn't have a very big book of baby names.

We know that none of the brothers of Jesus became a follower of his before he died. Then, after the Resurrection, Jesus appeared to Peter, the Twelve, some 500 others, and to James. (1 Corinthians 15:7) Only then did James become a follower of Jesus. It seems clear that he rapidly rose to become a leader in the growing Jesus Movement, but there was never any question of him replacing Jesus, of becoming an alternative messiah. No, James was happy to spend the rest of his life telling people that his dead brother was the messiah, the conquering hero who would overthrow the order of things and sit on David's throne. Makes you think he saw something fairly convincing after Jesus died, don't you think?

The apostle Paul tells us in the book of Galatians about his return to Jerusalem, three years after his own extraordinary experience with the Risen Jesus on the road to Damascus. He met with Peter and with "James, the Lord's brother." (Gal. 1:19) Fourteen years after the experience, he went to Jerusalem again, meeting with "James, Peter and John, those reputed to be pillars." (Gal. 2:9) The order here is significant. James is now, and will be for the rest of his life, the head of the Jesus Movement in Jerusalem. Later, Peter came to Antioch to meet with Paul and some of the believers, including Gentiles. But when "certain men came from James" (Gal. 2:12), Peter backed off on his friendliness with Gentiles, and Paul had to confront him.

The book of Acts mentions James on a number of occasions. When Peter escaped from prison in the early 40s, (Acts 12) he told his comrades to notify James that he was leaving the city. At the Jerusalem Council in about A.D. 50, (Acts 15) it was James (not Peter or Paul, although both were at the council) who made the final decision on how Gentiles would be treated within the movement. A few years later, about the year A.D. 57, (Acts 21) it was James who confronted Paul about certain rumors of Paul's behavior in the Diaspora.

The book of James, according to church tradition, was authored by this James. There is some question about this, however, because the book of James is written in Greek in the classical style of a Cynic-Stoic diatribe. Would a Galilean from a poor family have written in this sort of Hellenized rhetorical style? Maybe, maybe not. Some scholars have suggested that the book was originally written in Aramaic and then rendered into Greek by someone else, possibly years later. Whatever the case, the argument of the book seems very thoroughly Jewish and very much in line with the outrage with which a prophetic Jew of Jerusalem would have spoken shortly before the Jewish revolt. I can see no reason to believe that it could not have originated with James. But there's no way to prove it did, either.

The Jewish historian Josephus tells us that James, the brother of Jesus, was tried and executed in the year A.D. 62 in Jerusalem. You can read all about it if you have a copy of Josephus. It's in Antiquities of the Jews, Book XX, Chapter IX, Section 1. If you have the usual hideous orange-striped copy of Josephus translated by William Whiston, look on page 423, the right column. If you don't have a copy handy, I'll quote it for you. Since Josephus can be a mite tricky to understand, I'll insert my own explanatory comments in red text and parentheses directly in the text. William Whiston has his own notes in square brackets. This episode is dated to A.D. 62:

And now Caesar (that is, Nero), upon hearing of the death of Festus (that is, governor Porcius Festus, who served from about A.D. 59 to 62 and died in office), sent Albinus into Judea as procurator (that is, the new governor Lucceius Albinus, who was hastily appointed by Nero and dispatched to Judea as soon as news of the death of Festus reached Rome); but the king (that is, king Agrippa II, who had the right to appoint and depose high priests at will) deprived Joseph of the high priesthood (that is, Joseph Kabi, who was high priest for a short time, roughly A.D. 61-62), and bestowed the succession to that dignity on the son of Ananus, who was also himself called Ananus (this "Ananus" is identical to the "Annas" of the New Testament. Both spellings are Greek transliterations of the Hebrew name "Hanan"). Now the report goes, that this elder Ananus proved a most fortunate man; for he had five sons, who had all performed the office of a high priest to God, and he had himself enjoyed that dignity a long time formerly, which had never happened to any other of our high priests; but this younger Ananus, who, as we have told you already, took the high priesthood, was a bold man in his temper, and very insolent; he was also of the sect of the Sadducees, who were very rigid in judging offenders, above all the rest of the Jews, as we have already observed; when, therefore, Ananus was of this disposition, he thought he had now a proper opportunity [to exercise his authority.] Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of the judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, [or some of his companions;] and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned; (note that this death sentence on James, the brother of Jesus, was illegal, since only the Roman governor had the right to pass a death sentence) but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, (Josephus probably means the Pharisees here) they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa,] desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified: nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria (Albinus was probably already a Roman official in Egypt when he received his appointment to the governorship of Judea), and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent: whereupon Albinus complied with what they had said, and wrote in anger to Ananus, and threatened that he would bring him to punishment for what he had done; on which king Agrippa took the high priesthood from him, when he had ruled but three months, and made Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest. (Note that "Jesus" was a very common name, held by two high priests of this time period, not to mention the man Josephus refers to as "Jesus, who was called Christ.")

Josephus was a Jewish aristocrat, about 25 years old at this time, and living in Jerusalem, so he was very well-informed of the events. Josephus was a family friend of another high priest of the era, "Jesus, son of Gamaliel", who was a protege of the "Ananus son of Ananus" who did the dirty deed. So the incident recorded above is probably very close to the truth.

And what was the charge against this man James and his comrades? It's not clear. Josephus says merely that Ananus accused James and his men of being "breakers of the law". This is pretty broad. Apparently, they didn't observe the Torah in the same way Ananus did. Of course, neither did the Pharisees; the Talmud tells of many disputes between the Sadducees and their upstart opponents, the Pharisees. So it is very plausible that the Pharisees were the folks who got up in arms after the murder of James. James was quite friendly with Pharisees, and many of the followers of Jesus during this time period were Pharisees. This is clear from several references in the book of Acts. So the general charge was "law-breaking."

A further note: Ananus came from a family with a long tradition of pursuing the followers of Jesus. His father, Ananus the Elder, had once served as high priest years earlier and was the power behind the throne in the gospel stories of the trial of Jesus. Caiaphas was the son-in-law of Ananus the Elder, and he was high priest when Jesus was executed. Another son of Ananus, Jonathan, is the "John" mentioned in Acts 4:6, who was present at the trial of the apostles Peter and John. This Jonathan son of Ananus was in fact the captain of the Temple, the officer in charge of Temple security, and he became high priest a few years later. Another member of the clan, Matthias son of Ananus, was high priest in the early 40s when James the son of Zebedee was beheaded by king Agrippa I. In view of all this, it looks very much like there was a family vendetta against the followers of Jesus which culminated with Ananus the Younger executing James, brother of Jesus.
 

McBell

Unbound
What claims you silly billy, the contents of any links I post are not necessarily my view is. But fwiw, my view is the same as Matthew Kalman... :p

And if you have a different take, go ahead and believe what you will, I mean who really cares...:rolleyes:
My take is the same as the take of the author of the second article in YOUR OP.
Perhaps you should have actually read it for comprehension BEFORE you presented it?
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
What claims you silly billy, the contents of any links I post are not necessarily my view is. But fwiw, my view is the same as Matthew Kalman... :p

And if you have a different take, go ahead and believe what you will, I mean who really cares...:rolleyes:

You do realize, ben, that the ossuary can be fake but not forged by Golan himself. The ONLY thing that the judge did was rule that Golan did not forge the inscription.
 
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angellous_evangellous

Guest
This should settle ben's misunderstanding of the case:

James ossuary antiquities dealer cleared of fraud - Arts & Entertainment - CBC News

"The indictment ... accused Golan of faking antiques in different ways. For certain items, I decided that it was not proven, as required in criminal law, that they were fake," Judge Aharon Farkash wrote in the ruling.

Still, the judge acknowledged that the debate will likely continue since "there is nothing in these findings which necessarily proves that the items were authentic.

"All that was determined was that the means, the tools and the science available at present, along with the experts who testified, was not enough to prove the alleged fraud beyond reasonable doubt," Farkash wrote.

So the judge himself says that there is no evidence to conclude that it is authentic, but there is also not enough evidence to convict Golan for fraud.

The ruling says absolutely nothing about the authenticity of the ossuary.
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
My take is the same as the take of the author of the second article in YOUR OP.
Perhaps you should have actually read it for comprehension BEFORE you presented it?

The OP is about about the historical evidence of the existence of James, a brother of Jesus. My prefaced comments were in that context.

Since the OP article was written in 2002 when the presence of the box first emerged into the public domain, and it only came to my attention now due to the media news concerning collapse of the prosecution's case against Golan, I was sure that skeptics were sure to dismiss the evidence of the existence of a historical James on the basis by raising doubts about the authenticity of the icon, so I preempted this strawman by including a link to skeptical viewpoint to show that I was fully aware of the skeptics dim view of the result of the court case.

The OP is not primarily about the authenticity of the icon, it was made so by the kneejerk reaction from those who totally ignored commenting on the main James story.

So that story on James is there in my last post, if you want to comment please do, but for heavens sake pay attention to what's really going on instead of piling on with other silly billies who are unaware of what the OP was intended to be about,
 

Ben Dhyan

Veteran Member
I have answered honestly without agenda. I expressed my doubts on the issues. I was against you - my stance was actually neutral. There are questions to be asked, and I was willing to wait for more formal results to prove one way or another, if they were authentic or not.

And yet you say everyone who had different opinions to you, as trolls...but what of you? Aren't you acting like a troll?

You think you have won the argument, because the court ruled that there were not enough evidences to support forgery were committed. Not enough evidences also doesn't validate those suspected items. But what you don't realise that the court ruling in no way - prove those supposed relics in Golan's possession as authentic.

The only ones here are trolling, is you. I think you shot yourself in the foot and turn everyone's opinion on the subject against you.

How pathetic.

Dear gnostic, (and for the attention of all the others)

In light of your sincere attempt to engage me in a rational manner, I will respond in kind.

You never did read my OP did you?

The post title was James, Son of Joseph, Brother of Jesus, and here is what I had to say...

I missed this 2002 news of the bone box of James, Son of Joseph, Brother of Jesus at the time, and am posting this old article which provides an analysis here in case that there are others like me who missed it at the time.

After reading the full analyais, there seems little doubt that Jesus was indeed a historical figure, not that I personally doubted it, but I know many do and this may help them to accept the fact.

Link - James, Son of Joseph, Brother of Jesus

Now while this article was obviously written as a result of the 'discovery' of the James Ossuary (authentic or fake), it appears to me that some of the posters presume the above OP comments are said in the context of the icon being authentic,...and yet had they read the actual article they would understand that the context is simply the very good and comprehensive analysis of the facts of history concerning James, for if James was a real man, then so was his brother Jesus,..right?

So the court case result was not the context of all that I had said so far in the OP..yes?

Now no one has engaged me in any real way concerning the narrative of this 2002 article providing an analysis for the evidence that James was indeed an historical figure.

Got that?

Now I added at the bottom of the OP this...

Now the story doesn't end there has been archaeological doubts in some circles about the authenticity of the box and forgeries charges were brought against some men, however the case was dismissed recently.

You can read about it here... World Reacts to Jerusalem Antiquities Forgery Trial Verdict

Now the first sarcastic responses were :facepalm:, and :biglaugh: and it soon became evident that the posters were not engaging me in the context of the historical James that is revealed in the 2002 article, but wanted to carry on a debate about the authenticity of the icon which was the subject of the article I linked to, and made the observation concerning the results of the court case.

Naturally it was clear to me that they probably had not read my OP article in full, but reacted on impulse (knee jerk) to carry on a debate with me that had actually started on another thread,..James Ossuary resurrected ..., though I didn't know it existed at the time of my OP and would have no real interest in it anyway.

So the result of this lack of prior reading of the OP by all of you who have been attacking me as someone who is trying to prove the authenticity of the icon has left this thread a train wreck and I'm trying to at least get the thread on topic.

Now for those of you who have no interest in the authenticity of an historical James, but only an interest in the icon authenticity debate, then please cease posting here and go to the
James Ossuary resurrected ... thread.

Comments on James' authenticity anyone?
 

Badran

Veteran Member
Premium Member
***Mod post***

Thread reopened.

Please keep in mind rules 1 & 3 while posting. Off topic posts, personal attacks or posts that target any member are not allowed. Some posts in the thread have already been deleted for violating the above mentioned.

Please keep it civil everyone.
 
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