Jan. 6 committee takeaways

[icehorse]

A couple of thoughts I had after watching the committee's closing broadcast:

1 - Wow! The friggin dumpster fire was ALL IN. He tried everything to overturn the election.
2 - It's both gratifying and terrifying how many people had to stand up to his crap.
3 - Now I guess we hold our breathe to see if the DOJ will stand up, or be cowards.

Now I've thought for a long time that a LOT of our legal system is designed to do nothing more than enrich and empower lawyers. But this whole goat rodeo has really driven this point home. Hundreds have been arrested for Jan. 6, but the rich top dogs have - so far - been able to keep themselves off the hook. It strikes me that our legal system needs some serious rethinking. sigh.

 

[F1fan]

We are an impatient and cynical bunch. And perhaps the wealthy will get away with it, and face no criminal accountability.

But let's bear in mind that it is not unusual in RICO tye conspiracies for the small fry to cook first, and they are motivated to testify against higher ups. The higher ups are often the last to be held accountable.

Even if Trump is able to avoid prison (through spending money he swindled from supporters) he is living in a hell. His kids are living in a hell. The Trump family has lost all credibility, and Donald is to blame. He has massive loans coming due soon and does he have the money? At some point he might be broke, and have nothing left to sell. Even his NFT cards won't get the sales as his influence goes down the drain. Did he really sell out or was there money laundering? The cards got $4.45 million, was it worth the cost? How far will that go? There is still a question if classified information was sold to interested parties, as documents are still missing. The guy is in serious trouble.

He has not done a rally since he announced running, and that is odd. His legal bills will be exceptionally high since he tends to not pay. So he will have to pay upfront, and pay higher rates since fewer attorneys want to be involved with a corrupt client.

I suspect as soon as the first indictment comes down it will be like falling dominoes. His stress will go through the roof. More ketchup on the walls of Mar-a-Lago.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Over 900 people have been arrested and criminally charged in connection with the attack on the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021.

At least 964 people have been charged in the Capitol insurrection so far. This searchable table shows them all.

The following excerpts are from "The Capitol siege: The cases behind the biggest criminal investigation in U.S. history." I recommend reading the entire article and not just the excerpts. Also, I recommend reading the first article because it provides a list of the charges.

"Approximately 140 members of law enforcement suffered injuries in the attack, many at the hands of rioters wielding pepper spray, metal pipes and American flags fashioned into clubs. Those injuries included brain damage and crushed spinal discs."

"So far, more than 900 people have been charged with crimes, and that number continues to steadily grow. The FBI has estimated that 2,000 people may have been involved in the attack that day. Law enforcement has arrested alleged rioters in nearly all 50 states, as well as the District of Columbia. The defendants appear to be largely white, though not entirely. Federal prosecutors say far-right militia members decked out in tactical gear rioted next to a county commissioner, a New York City sanitation worker, and a two-time Olympic gold medalist."

"So far, 483 people have pleaded guilty to one or more charges stemming from the riot. Judges have handed down sentences to over 356 people. 55% of those people who have been sentenced received prison time. The average prison sentence across all defendants who pleaded guilty is 208 days. Twenty-one defendants have had jury trials, all convicted of multiple charges. Fifteen defendants have had bench trials - six mixed verdict, one full acquittal, and eight guilty on all counts. Five cases in federal court were dismissed, and eight cases in D.C. Superior Court were dismissed."

"NPR found at least 14% of those charged appear to have ties to the military or to law enforcement. The presence of current and former law enforcement officers, as well as military service members and veterans, has especially alarmed government officials."

"At least 154 defendants have alleged ties to known extremist or fringe organizations, such as the pro-Trump conspiracy theory QAnon; the Proud Boys, a far-right group known for street violence; the Oath Keepers, an anti-government group; and the Three Percenters, a part of the anti-government militia movement. A large majority of those charged, however, have no known connections to established extremist groups."

 

[Shadow Wolf]

He has not done a rally since he announced running, and that is odd.

Yes, and a big question of why. Is it health related? Has he been advised to not due to this investigation and possible trial? Is it because he realizes he can't possibly win anymore support than what he has? Is the money running out? It's hard telling but it is highly unusual for him.

 

[Aštra’el]

My thoughts on this subject:

Trump 2024

 

[F1fan]

My thoughts on this subject:

Trump 2024

Would you support fraud and criminal acts against the USA if that was needed for Trump to be president again? Would you invite overthrow of the actual winner of the election so Trump could take over and claim the presidency?

 

[Revoltingest]

Would you support fraud and criminal acts against the USA if that was needed for Trump to be president again? Would you invite overthrow of the actual winner of the election so Trump could take over and claim the presidency?

Obviously, he wants the Dems to win in 2024.

 

[wellwisher]

It would have been better if this committee was not so one sided, lacking balance and due process. I would have preferred, like in legal criminal trials, both the prosecution and the defense could each make a closing statement so the scales of justice are balanced. One can then have all the data and not only one side.

If I was, God forbid, in a criminal trial and only the prosecutor could summarize for the jury, I would assume this was a rigged trial; guilty until proven innocent while denying the innocent any defense. Even with the rigging, the Dems could get the teflon Don Trump, because you need more than a lopsided show trial that has no teeth. If they recommend this to the AG, it may be thrown out due to a mistrial.

When the Republicans head this same House Committee, in Jan 2023, and look into the Biden family and other things, will the Democrats allow the Republican run investigations to be as one-sided or will they cry foul and demand fairness; kangaroo court to crocodile tears.

 

[Revoltingest]

It would have been better if this committee was not so one sided, lacking balance and due process.

Why do you claim this?

 

[Stevicus]

A couple of thoughts I had after watching the committee's closing broadcast:

1 - Wow! The friggin dumpster fire was ALL IN. He tried everything to overturn the election.
2 - It's both gratifying and terrifying how many people had to stand up to his crap.
3 - Now I guess we hold our breathe to see if the DOJ will stand up, or be cowards.

Now I've thought for a long time that a LOT of our legal system is designed to do nothing more than enrich and empower lawyers. But this whole goat rodeo has really driven this point home. Hundreds have been arrested for Jan. 6, but the rich top dogs have - so far - been able to keep themselves off the hook. It strikes me that our legal system needs some serious rethinking. sigh.

As for the third point, I don't know if it's a question of cowardice, but more an objective evaluation of whether they have a chance of winning in court. It's a gamble, and if they gamble and lose, it could complicate things even more. At the very least, they have to have some degree of confidence that they can win.

It's one thing to have a congressional committee and play it out before the media, but when it actually gets to a courtroom, it's a whole different ballgame. It's really a legal matter at this point, so it's for the legal beagles to work out. I wouldn't be qualified to call them cowards if any of them opted not to take the case. I think the real pressure would be on the judge and any of the potential jurors. Imagine being called to jury duty and ending up on that jury. I wouldn't blame anyone for being scared. I'd be a bit nervous myself.

 

[icehorse]

It's a gamble, and if they gamble and lose, it could complicate things even more. At the very least, they have to have some degree of confidence that they can win.

Couple of questions:

- what's the downside of "gambling"? Isn't that the nature of all criminal law?
- they made at least two types of claims:
- claiming things trump did NOT do
- claiming things trump DID do

Proving negatives is always hard, but as for proving what he did do? Are you kidding me? We've seen mountains of printed and video evidence.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why do you claim this?

No echo chamber to remind the Reps balked over this and got stuck with what they got stuck with.
I think they were just playing politics, no different than when they said "oh well, it's his right" when Trump was challenging the election results.

 

[Stevicus]

Couple of questions:

- what's the downside of "gambling"? Isn't that the nature of all criminal law?
- they made at least two types of claims:
- claiming things trump did NOT do
- claiming things trump DID do

Proving negatives is always hard, but as for proving what he did do? Are you kidding me? We've seen mountains of printed and video evidence.

Well, as I said, at this point, it's for the legal beagles to figure out. I was only really addressing the point that they would be cowards if they didn't proceed with charging him.

As for the downside of gambling, in this case, if Trump ends up exonerated, he and his followers will see it as a huge victory. If Trump is found guilty, then (regardless of whether he actually goes to prison) it would end his political career. I think it's pretty much over for him either way, as he really doesn't appear to stand much of a chance of being elected in 2024. But if they put him on trial and he's found not guilty, that would give him quite a boost. That's the risk.

 

[icehorse]

But if they put him on trial and he's found not guilty, that would give him quite a boost. That's the risk.

I understand your point, and I agree that there is some risk.

OTOH, letting him off the hook for this reason would send a horrible, horrible message to the public, don't you think?

 

[Stevicus]

I understand your point, and I agree that there is some risk.

OTOH, letting him off the hook for this reason would send a horrible, horrible message to the public, don't you think?

I think it would depend on which part of the public is receiving the message. That's a large part of the problem with politics these days. They worry far too much about what kind of "message" they send and far too little on actually producing any beneficial results for the people.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

It would have been better if this committee was not so one sided, lacking balance and due process. I would have preferred, like in legal criminal trials, both the prosecution and the defense could each make a closing statement so the scales of justice are balanced. One can then have all the data and not only one side.

One-sided? The sides weren't Democrat versus Republican, but pro-Constitution, democracy, and the rule of law versus the opposite - MAGA Republicans. This was an investigation into what happened January 6th that the MAGA Republicans understood would expose Trump and others as criminals, and they did what they could to block the investigation. Then, when they couldn't stop the House from proceeding, they tried to scuttle the investigation from within.

When that failed, Kevin McCarthy voluntarily ceded his five picks in a snit, and freely signed off on letting Pelosi choose the committee members. She chose a bipartisan committee comprising people who consider insurrection a crime. They had no interest in including people determined to undermine the factfinding process. That "side" wasn't welcome to participate. Neither was Putin for the same reason.

Yes, it was a bonehead move by Republican leadership to not put five members on the committee as they were invited to do. As a result, ahead of the hearings, the MAGA Republicans didn't know what the committee had, couldn't prepare defenses for Trump, couldn’t influence the direction of the investigation, couldn’t ask contrary questions during public or private proceedings, couldn’t leak anything, and couldn’t dilute the panel’s findings in advance of a final report. But that was by choice. That was an unforced error from a MAGA perspective, but a godsend from a pro-Constitution perspective.

Furthermore, nothing was preventing the Republicans from doing a parallel investigation like the DOJ was (and still is) conducting if they felt the committee wouldn't do a comprehensive job of uncovering relevant evidence. The obvious fact is that they knew that the committee would not find any exonerating evidence, and neither would they except unless it was among the contents of Hunter Biden's laptop.

Nor are the MAGA Republicans prevented from making a closing statement. It just won't be included in the committee's report, and didn't appear during the televised hearings. And if they like, they can submit amicus briefs during the criminal trials in defense of the accused insurrectionists, which are also not partisan procedures. Also, Trump et al. will have legal counsel giving the counterargument to the committee's findings and recommendations as well as the DOJ's criminal cases. It doesn't get any fairer than that.

The plan from the start was apparently to try to diminish the impact and credibility of the committee by refusing to participate and making it appear partisan - all Democrats. Then Pelosi found two Republicans interested in protecting the Constitution, but the Republicans still went ahead with that trope of partisanship anyway, which has apparently influenced you judging by your objection above. You seem to see the process as unfair.

 

[Ponder This]

A couple of thoughts I had after watching the committee's closing broadcast:

1 - Wow! The friggin dumpster fire was ALL IN. He tried everything to overturn the election.
2 - It's both gratifying and terrifying how many people had to stand up to his crap.
3 - Now I guess we hold our breathe to see if the DOJ will stand up, or be cowards.

Now I've thought for a long time that a LOT of our legal system is designed to do nothing more than enrich and empower lawyers. But this whole goat rodeo has really driven this point home. Hundreds have been arrested for Jan. 6, but the rich top dogs have - so far - been able to keep themselves off the hook. It strikes me that our legal system needs some serious rethinking. sigh.

Don't hold your breath. The problem isn't that the DOJ doesn't want to act as a political arm of the Democrat party; it's that they need to have evidence that will hold up in court. Two years ago there was an attempt to find a case of incitement against Trump for Jan 6 and it failed in the face of overwhelming evidence against. Not much has changed.

I'd say good riddance, but the Republican controlled House will set up another committee and we don't know yet if it will be as badly formed and partisan as the committee set up by the Democrat controlled House.

 

[Stevicus]

Don't hold your breath. The problem isn't that the DOJ doesn't want to act as a political arm of the Democrat party; it's that they need to have evidence that will hold up in court. Two years ago there was an attempt to find a case of incitement against Trump for Jan 6 and it failed in the face of overwhelming evidence against. Not much has changed.

I'd say good riddance, but the Republican controlled House will set up another committee and we don't know yet if it will be as badly formed and partisan as the committee set up by the Democrat controlled House.

One thing I've observed about the U.S. legal system, not just with Trump - but with anyone who has the wherewithal to hire high-priced attorneys - it's that the system is almost powerless in dealing with those who know the ins and outs of how to game it. That's partly how organized crime has been able to operate with near impunity for generations. Likewise, many still believe that O.J. got away with murder, all thanks to his legal "dream team" which totally outmatched the lesser-paid public servants on the prosecuting team. It's all a game, and those who know how to play it best are those who win.

 

[Revoltingest]

One thing I've observed about the U.S. legal system, not just with Trump - but with anyone who has the wherewithal to hire high-priced attorneys - it's that the system is almost powerless in dealing with those who know the ins and outs of how to game it. That's partly how organized crime has been able to operate with near impunity for generations. Likewise, many still believe that O.J. got away with murder, all thanks to his legal "dream team" which totally outmatched the lesser-paid public servants on the prosecuting team. It's all a game, and those who know how to play it best are those who win.

The wealthy do fare better than the poor,
but money pales in comparison to being
a powerful politician.

 

[icehorse]

I'd say good riddance, but the Republican controlled House will set up another committee and we don't know yet if it will be as badly formed and partisan as the committee set up by the Democrat controlled House.

Remember, the Dems offered seats on the committee to the GOP, but they declined.