Jayhawker Soulesearching: making sausage and responsible social protest

[Jayhawker Soule]

First, a couple of points:

• I am fully aware that many will not particularly like this post and that some will simply pollute it.
• It is the post of someone who has participated in numerous demonstrations, who has been arrested a number of times for acts of civil disobedience (sit-ins), and who is more than willing participate in future militant demonstrations.

And now, my problem …

I got a message yesterday morning inviting me to a vigil/protest. After much soul-searching I reluctantly chose not to go. It was a painful decision driven by two considerations:

1. I simply am not willing to participate in something that will inevitably conflate what happened in New York with what happened in Ferguson: "I can't breath!" is a chant I understand and support; "Hands up; don't shoot." may well be irresponsibly promoting an urban legend at the expense of truth.
2. I am more than willing to engage in civil disobedience directed against the culpable. I am not willing to choke off Lake Shore Drive or Michigan Ave. - the people trying to get somewhere are not the enemy.

So I stayed home, and the soul-searching continues ...

 

[DawudTalut]

Peace be on you. One is sure, you took right decision by avoiding roads-approach.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

First, a couple of points:

• I am fully aware that many will not particularly like this post and that some will simply pollute it.
• It is the post of someone who has participated in numerous demonstrations, who has been arrested a number of times for acts of civil disobedience (sit-ins), and who is more than willing participate in future militant demonstrations.

And now, my problem …

I got a message yesterday morning inviting me to a vigil/protest. After much soul-searching I reluctantly chose not to go. It was a painful decision driven by two considerations:

1. I simply am not willing to participate in something that will inevitably conflate what happened in New York with what happened in Ferguson: "I can't breath!" is a chant I understand and support; "Hands up; don't shoot." may well be irresponsibly promoting an urban legend at the expense of truth.
2. I am more than willing to engage in civil disobedience directed against the culpable. I am not willing to choke off Lake Shore Drive or Michigan Ave. - the people trying to get somewhere are not the enemy.

So I stayed home, and the soul-searching continues ...

Peace, my friend. Love you.

 

[Revoltingest]

Sounds pretty reasonable to me.

 

[Buttercup]

Wise discernment as usual, Jay.

 

[YmirGF]

Sounds like a pretty reasonable stance to take, Jay.

 

[Brickjectivity]

While I have never been civilly disobedient or risked incarceration for a good cause and don't know if I would, maybe the injustice of the system is bad enough to not worry about conflating the two events? On the other hand, maybe that is why you have made this decision. You want there to be a precise message.

I thought this sort of race thing wouldn't be a problem 'Up north' where whites and blacks have been equals for generations. This means that perhaps they haven't been equals for generations. I guess I just always thought things were better in the northern states.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

..., maybe the injustice of the system is bad enough to not worry about conflating the two events?

Maybe: hence continued the soul-searching.

I thought this sort of race thing wouldn't be a problem 'Up north' where whites and blacks have been equals for generations. This means that perhaps they haven't been equals for generations.

There have been modest but real improvements since the days of Jim Crow, but there has always been disparate racial and class justice.

 

[XIII-Legion]

I guess I just always thought things were better in the northern states.

Better doesn't mean that the two races are equal in the North; nowhere in the world will you find any two groups will be treated exactly the same or "equal". It just means that the North is relatively better as far as race relations go.

Having said that, I happen to think race relations in Britain is generally better than most of the Northern states in America; as a white majority jury can never be trusted to convict a white defendant who is accused of killing a black person in most jurisdictions in America; but the racist killers of black teenager Stephen Lawrence have been convicted by unanimous verdict by an all-white jury in London.

But that's not to say that race relations in Britain is perfect by any means at all; it simply means that the power difference between black and white is generally less than its equivalent in America.

Despite all the talk about "race equality" in modern America, such equality can't really be real in practice, considering the fact most politicians would tend to acquiesce to public opinion about who they should, or shouldn't date/marry.

Thus, NYC Mayor Bill de Blasio, US Senator Mitch McConnell, US Senator Sam Hayakawa, and Former US Representative from Tennessee Harold Ford Jr. etc. are atypical of US politicians. Percentage wise there aren't enough politicians in such a class to suggest that America's public opinion would be tolerant of aspiring politicians who've tried to demonstrate social upward mobility in such regards.

 

[icehorse]

(fwiw - I've also been civilly disobedient)

Seems to me the organizers screwed up with their conflation. One of the many problems with simplistic labels.

 

[columbus]

@Jayhawker Soule
There will always be wrongs that need righting. Choosing to work on them in ways that seem responsible and effective to you sounds like a very wise course.

Tom

 

[XIII-Legion]

There have been modest but real improvements since the days of Jim Crow, but there has always been disparate racial and class justice.

But obviously, such "improvements" aren't good enough to allow US politicians to be married to a different race - especially minority politicians who would like to have white spouses - since the examples of Bill de Blasio, Mitch McConnell, Samuel Hayakawa, and Harold Ford Jr. etc. are atypical of American politicians.

Contrast the situation in your country to that of Canada and Great Britain, and you will see there is hardly any comparison at all. American voters aren't the most tolerant bunch of people since large numbers of them do not tolerate minority politicians who're married to whites - Harold Ford and Sam Hayakawa would be the only exception to this rule - but Canadian voters don't seem to have a problem with Ted Tzu being married to a white woman, nor do they have a problem with Michaelle Jean and Adrienne Clarkson being married to white men.

Also, UK voters don't seem to have any problem with Adam Afriyie MP, Bernie Grant MP, David Lammy MP, Sam Gyimah MP, and Patricia Scotland etc. who are all black politicians with white partners.

So America is not the most tolerant and progressive country in the western world as far as race relations go. Hence, the so-called "improvements" you've referred to in your comment aren't anything to be proud; because other countries would have far more reason to be proud.

 

[sun rise]

Whether or not one chooses to engage in any particular public action is a personal decision. I'm not much inclined to do that these days although I did that in the past. I'm inclined these days to focus more on how I treat others in small ways by not prejudging someone based on their race, appearance or their job and by trying to treat others with respect. I don't always succeed, of course, but that's my goal.

I'm not asserting there is no value in public demonstrations, but the value to some degree depends on how the demonstrators behave. From what I've heard, the demonstrators in New York behaved well compared to other cities response to Ferguson and I salute them.

 

[xkatz]

Good on you Jay.

Unfortunately, people in my town are protesting by blocking one of the major roads. And it's the weekend before finals to make matters worse.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

So America is not the most tolerant and progressive country in the western world as far as race relations go. Hence, the so-called "improvements" you've referred to in your comment aren't anything to be proud; ...

As I said in the OP:

• I am fully aware that many will not particularly like this post and that some will simply pollute it.

 

[XIII-Legion]

As I said in the OP:

• I am fully aware that many will not particularly like this post and that some will simply pollute it.

But the only thing I dislike is your assumption I have "polluted" the thread. However, this cannot be construed as "pollution" in anyway, shape or form; for it's simply meant to inform us with regards to information, by comparing with other countries outside America.

Fact is, you've mentioned Jim Crow laws in America; but beside S. Africa, France, and Nazi Germany, America is one of few western countries to have implemented such practice; which have endured for such a long time, and for much longer than other countries in the western world.

Segregation laws in Nazi Germany lasted for a mere 10 years, between enactment of the Nuremberg Laws in 1935 and Germany's final surrender in May 1945.

Anti-miscegenation laws in France have been overturned by case law in a civil court during the mid-nineteenth century.

S. Africa is arguably not a western country at all, despite being ruled by a white minority during Apartheid.

Therefore, America is by far the worst example of racial segregation in the western world in modern times; as such laws were introduced in the final decade of the 19th century and continued well into the 20th century, until the Supreme Court's Declaration on Loving v. Virginia in 1967.

No, this is not "pollution" at all; but it's simply meant to inform us that America is definitely not the most tolerant society in the western world, which is true even now in the 21st century.

So I'm afraid to say, America is the only source of "pollution" as far as this conversation goes; for what is true of America doesn't apply here in our country.

Whether you like it or not, this is irrefutable FACT.

Postscript: Suffice to say that minorities and immigrants could easily bring America to its knees if they would suddenly depart from the United States; and America's economy would simply grind to a halt within a few days; because most of the whites cannot, and would never do the dirty unpleasant jobs, which are often associated with migrants to the US.

So the economic & power relationship between whites and minorities is never one-sided, and never has been; because whites have always relied on minorities, as much as they've relied on whites to enable each other's livelihood, and to keep this country afloat.

NOTE: Outgoing NYC Mayor Michael Bloomberg attacked his rival Bill de Blasio with a racist comment during the mayoral elections in 2013; he claimed that de Blasio's advertising was "racist" because of its attempt to depict his mixed race family as "normal" occurence in US politics. But such comments would never be tolerated at all by any major political party in a UK or Canadian general election. So much so for America.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

But obviously, such "improvements" aren't good enough to allow US politicians to be married to a different race - especially minority politicians who would like to have white spouses - since the examples of Bill de Blasio, Mitch McConnell, Samuel Hayakawa, and Harold Ford Jr. etc. are atypical of American politicians.

Contrast the situation in your country to that of Canada and Great Britain, and you will see there is hardly any comparison at all. American voters aren't the most tolerant bunch of people since large numbers of them do not tolerate minority politicians who're married to whites - Harold Ford and Sam Hayakawa would be the only exception to this rule - but Canadian voters don't seem to have a problem with Ted Tzu being married to a white woman, nor do they have a problem with Michaelle Jean and Adrienne Clarkson being married to white men.

Also, UK voters don't seem to have any problem with Adam Afriyie MP, Bernie Grant MP, David Lammy MP, Sam Gyimah MP, and Patricia Scotland etc. who are all black politicians with white partners.

So America is not the most tolerant and progressive country in the western world as far as race relations go. Hence, the so-called "improvements" you've referred to in your comment aren't anything to be proud; because other countries would have far more reason to be proud.

That is an interesting observation.
I was involved at local level in Liberal politics for many years in the UK.
This is the first occasion I have ever had it brought to my attention that there is a problem of any kind with mixed race marriage for politicians. As You mention there are numerous examples in the UK and never once has it been a voters issue.
I was aware during WW2 that black and white American soldiers did not mix, however It was never a problem for British people who invited them into their homes equally. It only became a serious problem for white girls who married black soldier when they moved to the USA.. To say it was a shock is an under statement.

I have tried to find the equivalent time in British history to the Black emancipation and equality issues that are still being worked through in the USA.

The nearest I can find is when there was an influx of west Indians after the war ( all Empire Citizens had the automatic right to british citizenship at that time) This influx to certain small areas caused serious tensions where they chose to settle, though strictly speaking it was not so much a black white, issue as a cultural one. Intermarriage was never a serious issue between these new comers and whites and has always taken place.

However there is an issue between the british police and black and some Indian subcontinent peoples.
Arrests, stop and search and disproportionate prison populations attest to this fact. There is little doubt that the police service has supported a "Raciest" viewpoint for some years. Though it manifests it self even more as a lack of support for black victims of crime, compared to those same crimes committed against whites.

 

[Wirey]

We all must follow the path we see as right. That said, your Hippy Card is hereby revoked!

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

We all must follow the path we see as right.

Not when that "path" is one of mindless vandalism and disruption, and not when that path elevates mob action above principle.

 

[BSM1]

While I have never been civilly disobedient or risked incarceration for a good cause and don't know if I would, maybe the injustice of the system is bad enough to not worry about conflating the two events? On the other hand, maybe that is why you have made this decision. You want there to be a precise message.

I thought this sort of race thing wouldn't be a problem 'Up north' where whites and blacks have been equals for generations. This means that perhaps they haven't been equals for generations. I guess I just always thought things were better in the northern states.

I'm going to interject a thought here just for clarification. I was raised in the South and the North in the days before segregation. There was definitely a difference in the way the 'Negro' was viewed in either area. In the South you didn't really have the hate for blacks in the truest sense of the word; you had more like disdain for the race. I wasn't never taught to hate blacks, I was taught that they were subhuman and incapable of inclusion into white, decent society (not saying there wasn't hatred it just wasn't as prevalent as supposed). The epithets and myths (such as Blacks can't swim because of their bone structure, seriously) flowed freely in many Southern white homes. In the South blacks were considered more like farm animals that should be treated kindly but never allowed into the house. This 'farm animal' mentality also meant that if a 'Negro' stepped outside the boundaries (such as approaching a white woman) or became 'uppity' then that animal needed to be put down. However, when I moved North, again before segregation, I was introduced to a whole new world. In the town I lived the Blacks, whites, and Puerto Ricans were constantly fighting. These people recognized each other as equally human and they truly hated each other in the strictest terms. By the time I moved back south I had a totally new perspective on race relations. I was able to recognize the humanity in everyone, but even to this day I have to fight against the lessons of my upbringing. But, thankfully, I never passed any of this along to my children. They have never heard me utter a name or stereotypical ideal attributed to any race. I think this is what you're seeing in the south as opposed to the perceived, or real, racism in the north.