Jealous God

[74x12]

You don’t understand the paradox in the Eden story.

How is Eve to know, not to listen to the serpent, 1213?

If the Tree of Life supposed to give eternal life, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil”, then this Tree of Knowledge is supposed to give understanding to make judgement between food and bad.

BUT, she has not eaten from the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge, yet...so she doesn’t know how to distinguish between good and bad, between right and wrong, between truth and lie, YET.

You cannot possibly think Eve is wrong to listen, when she doesn’t have that ability to make such judgement, yet...until she has eaten from that banned Tree.

They only know their actions were wrong AFTER they ate from the Tree of Knowledge:


It is only when their “eyes were opened”, that they saw the consequences of disobeying God.

Yet they knew better because God told them they would die if they did it. They understood that much at least. It's the law of fair warning. Everyone knows this law if they've ever seen a sign on someone's yard "beware of the dog". Even if oyu have a legitimate reason for going in their yard. Let's say you accidentally threw something over the fence that you need to get back. Yet, you know full well that if you go in there; the dog might attack you. That's fair warning.

 

[74x12]

It is only when their “eyes were opened”, that they saw the consequences of disobeying God.

No, this is when they realized the concept of guilt. Of knowing you've done wrong. They knew the consequences beforehand when God told them they would die. There is a difference between consequences and actual guilt. So any murderer for example might or might not realize that murder is wrong. Yet, in some countries at least they know the consequences. Prison or the death penalty in some cases. There is a difference between the consequence and actual guilt. Many people who are in prison today believe they did nothing wrong; yet they will freely admit to various crimes including murder.

 

[gnostic]

Yet they knew better because God told them they would die if they did it. They understood that much at least. It's the law of fair warning.

Sorry, but did they?

Have they lived long enough to what "death" is?

It is very doubtful they really knew what death is, since if they have never witness anyone die before, especially if they were the first people, or even the only people to live in the Garden.

As far as I can see, the first death was Abel's murder (Genesis 4).

But there is no "law" in this, fair warning or not.

Beside that I see the pair, to be like talking to children. You can give them all the warning as you want, but a child will do something, no matter how much you lecture, especially if he or she is of a young age.

We don't know how long they have resided in the Garden, between time of their creation and the time of their expulsion from the Garden. But adult or not, they haven't been around long enough, to be mature and responsible. And it is very apparent they don't have the wisdom, to know what is right or wrong.

If you look at the book, at its face value, by focusing on what has been narrated and on what have been said, God only spoke to Adam, "Don't eat from that Tree".

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”

Eve wasn't there, because she wasn't created at that time, so we don't know if God told her directly, not to eat from that Tree, or if Adam did.

So it is very possible, Eve heard the warning second-hand, from Adam. Hearing warning from someone else, doesn't have as much impact of driving the message into Eve's head.

And we know that Eve spoke with the serpent, who said different things from the God.

And from what I see, the serpent spoke no lies. The eating of the fruit, did open their eyes, and eating the fruit, didn't immediately kill them. Adam lived to be 930 years old.

God did say "...for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.” That sounds very much like, they would die on that day - the day they ate the fruit.

So the serpent was telling the truth.

Anyway, it is not "fair warning", if you heard it second-hand.

But if God really, like REALLY didn't want them to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge...

(A) then why plant it so close to their proximity,
(B) and why didn't God post an angel to guard the Tree?​

Warning or not, it clearly wasn't sufficient.

If God was indeed all-knowing and wiser than man, God did not place any "REAL" measure in place, to reinforce the warning, to ensure that they didn't eat from the Tree, like planting far away or in more inaccessible place, or put a guard around the Tree. God didn't do either of these, so whose fault is really? (Hint: God)

God did place a guard (the angel with the flaming sword) to prevent them from re-entering the Garden (Genesis 3:24), when he could have easily install angel in front of the Tree.

Which would mean one of two things:

1. God isn't wise at all. (I would God is bloody stupid)
   
2. But if God was wise, then perhaps God wanted them to fail.

 

[gnostic]

No, this is when they realized the concept of guilt. Of knowing you've done wrong. They knew the consequences beforehand when God told them they would die. There is a difference between consequences and actual guilt. So any murderer for example might or might not realize that murder is wrong. Yet, in some countries at least they know the consequences. Prison or the death penalty in some cases. There is a difference between the consequence and actual guilt. Many people who are in prison today believe they did nothing wrong; yet they will freely admit to various crimes including murder.

It is not the same thing, 74x12.

What happen at the Garden is not the same as murder.

It is like you, comparing an apple to a doormat. The comparison is no where alike.

And you are forgetting, they haven't eaten the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, meaning they cannot make mature and informed judgement, of whether to listen to the serpent or to not listen to the serpent.

Without acquiring the knowledge, you cannot say who is right or wrong. You cannot possibly know who is telling lie and who's telling the truth.

Clearly, Eve was easily persuaded. If she is guilty of anything, is that of naivety.

The story of Eden, is a story of paradox. They were put in the impossible situation. They don't have the faculty to know right from wrong, unless they ate from the Tree, and the Tree was so accessible and unguarded.

And God only gave them a warning, but no safeguard to prevent what eventually happen. That only shows, God is not so wise at all.

 

[1213]

…

How is Eve to know, not to listen to the serpent, 1213?

She can listen, but why she chose to believe the serpent rather than God?

If the Tree of Life supposed to give eternal life, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil”, then this Tree of Knowledge is supposed to give understanding to make judgement between good and bad.

Interesting thing is that it is not said by God that it gives the knowledge. But it was not needed to know is it good, it was enough to know the consequences. Death or knowledge is not itself bad.

 

[gnostic]

She can listen, but why she chose to believe the serpent rather than God?



Interesting thing is that it is not said by God that it gives the knowledge. But it was not needed to know is it good, it was enough to know the consequences. Death or knowledge is not itself bad.

Sorry, but that's a load of bull.

As far as we can tell from Genesis, neither Adam, nor Eve, know what is good and what is bad, or what are right and wrong.

Knowing right and wrong, is the only way all a person to know what to decide to say or do. If you don't have that capability, then you won't know what you are doing is wrong.

Just because God gave them warnings, it is meaningless to them.

You and I may know that a warning is information of a hazard or danger, that's true.

However, without the faculty to distinguish between good and bad, between right and wrong, etc, there is no guarantee that have the necessary wisdom to make the right choice.

I view Adam and Eve, as someone like children.

To a child, he or she will often do things they are not supposed to, even if you give them instruction or a warning.

A person giving you information, you may not know if the information is correct or not, especially if you don't have the experience. And a child would lack experiences.

In the real world, you need the experiences, not just the knowledge, to make the correct choice. That's where wisdom come in.

God may have made Adam and Eve as adult male and female, and they have some knowledge about the world around them, but wisdom required not merely knowledge, but experiences of making the right choice.

And sometimes, wisdom come from making a number of wrong choices, before learning to make the right ones.

I am sure that you have heard of phrase, "Learning through your mistakes" or "Learning from making bad choices".

When God punish them, did he give them second chance? Did he let them, learn from their mistakes?

Apparently not. He just went ahead, and curse them, before kicking them out of the garden.

And clearly they did not have that experiences, therefore they didn't have the wisdom, to make the right choice.

Yes, they were warn that they could die, if they ate the fruit, but they have not experience anyone dying before, after they were created. To them, it is just some words.

You are confusing knowledge with wisdom. Yes, they are related, but wisdom required making choices, by weighing available options, and like I have said before, it come from experiences.

 

[1213]

As far as we can tell from Genesis, neither Adam, nor Eve, know what is good and what is bad, or what are right and wrong.

Bible doesn’t really tell that they didn’t know good or evil. That the tree is called tree of knowledge of good and evil doesn’t mean they didn’t know. And they could have asked directly from Goa anything. But it seems to me that the point was not the knowledge, but the idea of becoming like god as the serpent claimed.

However, the fruit itself was not in my opinion bad. Bible tells everything was good at the beginning, when God created, so the tree was good also. And it was not bad to eat it. But if they would not have eaten it, they could have had easier time.

Knowing right and wrong, is the only way all a person to know what to decide to say or do. If you don't have that capability, then you won't know what you are doing is wrong.

According to the Bible, the woman saw it good thing to eat:

When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit of it, and ate; and she gave some to her husband with her, and he ate.
Gen. 3:6

So clearly, they had ability to think what is good and not good. Good and bad are really matters of subjective opinions.

In the real world, you need the experiences, not just the knowledge, to make the correct choice. That's where wisdom come in.

I think it is possible to think is something good choice. Experience is not necessary always, at least not for me.

When God punish them, did he give them second chance? Did he let them, learn from their mistakes?

I think they have had second chance, at least when this happened:

Most assuredly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God's voice; and those who hear will live.
John 5:25

Dead have heard also the message of Jesus and had chance to be saved.

 

[ExVasterist]

The one thing that the bible says about God being Jealous while expecting his creation to not be Jealous is honestly hypocritical.

Why can he be Jealous but we can't?
Its ok for him to to be Jealous, but not ok for us?

I've heard from believers that to be Jealous is sinful (wrong/evil), but why is it not evil for God to be jealous?
And if what he says is true (in the bible) that no other gods exist, but him, why should he be jealous of something he says doesn't exist?

It makes absolutely no sense.

On top of that, he can be Wrathful (vengeance or cause harm to others) but once again we can't, because its apparent evil, not evil if he does it.

This is one of the many reasons why I believe that most of the bible is Man's word rather than God's Word.

 

[syo]

the christian god is not a jealous god. was jesus jealous? no he wasn't.

 

[74x12]

Sorry, but did they?

Have they lived long enough to what "death" is?

It is very doubtful they really knew what death is, since if they have never witness anyone die before, especially if they were the first people, or even the only people to live in the Garden.

As far as I can see, the first death was Abel's murder (Genesis 4).

I believe God can explain Himself or make the thought known.

Beside that I see the pair, to be like talking to children. You can give them all the warning as you want, but a child will do something, no matter how much you lecture, especially if he or she is of a young age.

We don't know how long they have resided in the Garden, between time of their creation and the time of their expulsion from the Garden. But adult or not, they haven't been around long enough, to be mature and responsible. And it is very apparent they don't have the wisdom, to know what is right or wrong.

If you look at the book, at its face value, by focusing on what has been narrated and on what have been said, God only spoke to Adam, "Don't eat from that Tree".

They had physically developed minds at least. The thing with a toddler is it's not just that they know nothing, but they have smaller less developed mind. Adam and Eve seem to have had some inherent knowledge as well. For example a toddler cannot even speak. Adam and Eve can speak.

And we know that Eve spoke with the serpent, who said different things from the God.

And from what I see, the serpent spoke no lies. The eating of the fruit, did open their eyes, and eating the fruit, didn't immediately kill them. Adam lived to be 930 years old.

God did say "...for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.” That sounds very much like, they would die on that day - the day they ate the fruit.

So the serpent was telling the truth.

It really caused their death instead of making them "as gods". Knowledge alone doesn't make us as gods.

... I believe they were immortal before that and so became mortals because they ate the fruit of knowledge ... It's all symbolic of how we're free so long as we're without knowledge. But knowledge condemns us because we're conscious of our sins.

But if God really, like REALLY didn't want them to not eat from the Tree of Knowledge...

(A) then why plant it so close to their proximity,
(B) and why didn't God post an angel to guard the Tree?
Warning or not, it clearly wasn't sufficient.

Well, there is no reason to think the garden was exclusive for Adam and Eve. Clearly you have at least this "serpent" walking around in it. I believe other beings of higher intelligence probably came there. Basically it's not Adam or Eve's garden. They're just put there to "tend" the garden. Just like any job there are rules. The only rule here was not to eat of the tree of knowledge.

As for your second point. Why didn't God post an angel? That's a good question. I believe it was test their obedience and loyalty.

If God was indeed all-knowing and wiser than man, God did not place any "REAL" measure in place, to reinforce the warning, to ensure that they didn't eat from the Tree, like planting far away or in more inaccessible place, or put a guard around the Tree. God didn't do either of these, so whose fault is really? (Hint: God)

God did place a guard (the angel with the flaming sword) to prevent them from re-entering the Garden (Genesis 3:24), when he could have easily install angel in front of the Tree.

Which would mean one of two things:

It's the old question when you thought God should protect instead there is a sneaky serpent in the garden coming to steal your innocence. Well, as I said it's all a test in my belief. I believe even our life right now is a test. We're all tested just as Adam and Eve were tested. We all have something the serpent can steal from us if we let him.

The story of Eden really brings home how the consequences of giving in are more than we would ever want. It's consequences. An eternal law of the universe.

It is not the same thing, 74x12.

What happen at the Garden is not the same as murder.

It is like you, comparing an apple to a doormat. The comparison is no where alike.

And you are forgetting, they haven't eaten the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, meaning they cannot make mature and informed judgement, of whether to listen to the serpent or to not listen to the serpent.

Yes they lacked knowledge and perhaps wisdom etc. They probably were naive also. But, the test was easy. All they have to do is avoid one tree. It's a baby test and they had every reason to pass. Ever since then; our tests have become much more difficult. For example, Job's test. He had a supernatural being(satan) studying his weaknesses and trying to make him think God hated him. Job still refused to doubt God. Job's hardest test was actually his friends who came to "comfort" him but ended up provoking him with accusations. His friends couldn't understand why these things would happen to him; unless Job was some kind of hypocrite who secretly oppressed the poor and needy.

Clearly, Eve was easily persuaded. If she is guilty of anything, is that of naivety.

The story of Eden, is a story of paradox. They were put in the impossible situation. They don't have the faculty to know right from wrong, unless they ate from the Tree, and the Tree was so accessible and unguarded.

And God only gave them a warning, but no safeguard to prevent what eventually happen. That only shows, God is not so wise at all.

God wishes to promote us to higher things. To see us grow and become something great. They were the trees of God's garden. Adam and Eve were made the keepers of a garden. It was an easy job and only had one rule. But whoever is promoted without facing some kind of difficulty? God puts us in situations that do test us but that doesn't mean He does not love us and it certainly doesn't mean He's unwise.

 

[74x12]

the christian god is not a jealous god. was jesus jealous? no he wasn't.

The only jealousy of God is as a husband for his wife. Most men or women will be jealous of their spouse if they find out they're committing adultery they won't be happy. That is how God is jealous over His people. It does not mean God is "envious" or anything silly like that.

 

[74x12]

Why can he be Jealous but we can't?
Its ok for him to to be Jealous, but not ok for us?

The jealousy of God is not "envy". It is jealousy of a husband over his wife. It's about fidelity vs. adultery. Anyone married can understand it.

 

[ExVasterist]

The jealousy of God is not "envy". It is jealousy of a husband over his wife. It's about fidelity vs. adultery. Anyone married can understand it.

But 9 times out of 10, that Jealousy can become obsessive & very unhealthy. People have been jealous of their spouse or significant other just merely hanging out with their friends & family, doesn't matter if its totally innocent, many times I've met those that think their spouse or significant other is cheating on them with no evidence or proof to back up their constant assumptions.

I once had a girlfriend that was deeply jealous. She thought my mother was trying to turn me away from her, despite the fact that she allowed her to move in her house rent-free just because she was my girlfriend, and gave us her bed while she slept in the living room.
And then this one time where she met one of my female friends, she accused me of sleeping with her despite the fact that my friend is MARRIED & PREGNANT to the guy that she is still with and will not ever cheat on her husband for anyone.

And most times, the jealous types are the ones that are cheating. So what? My wife has friends, why should I distrust her because she hangs out with her friends a lot?
Jealousy always leads to distrust & hatred, and if you can't trust your wife, husband, or significant other, then it is doomed to fail.

And if God can't trust his own creation despite the bit where he suppose to know everything before everything exists, that means he's either getting angry over nothing or he's not all-knowing.

 

[gnostic]

I believe God can explain Himself or make the thought known.

So?

It doesn't mean Adam and Eve, at that stage, what death or suffering is all about, because before they ate the forbidden fruit, they have never commit a single sin.

How can they REALLY know the consequence, if you living in a bubble of ignorance?

All God did, was just give them one warning to Adam. We don't know if God shared this same warning to Eve, because Genesis doesn't say so, but we do know she know of the warning when she was conversing with the serpent. Perhaps it came from from Adam, perhaps from God; either ways, it is debatable.

But it should be clear to you, one warning wasn't enough.

So why wasn't God bright enough that it wasn't enough, if God was so "all-knowing".

So why didn't God place a guard at the Tree of Knowledge?

He had a guard at the end of Genesis 3, which was a bit too late.

They had physically developed minds at least. The thing with a toddler is it's not just that they know nothing, but they have smaller less developed mind. Adam and Eve seem to have had some inherent knowledge as well. For example a toddler cannot even speak. Adam and Eve can speak.

Just because they have a mind and some knowledge, doesn't make them wise or mature.

You are confusing knowledge with wisdom.

And just because they have adult bodies, with no childhood, it doesn't make them mature.

Wisdom comes from experiences. Making decisions about what is right or wrong, also come from experience.

It is quite apparent, they don't have that experiences.

 

[74x12]

And if God can't trust his own creation despite the bit where he suppose to know everything before everything exists, that means he's either getting angry over nothing or he's not all-knowing.

I see where you're coming from with this. I think you're misunderstanding the scripture a little bit. It is not saying that God is mistrusting anyone. What God means when He says He's a jealous God is that people shouldn't worship any other gods or then they'll rouse His jealousy. So in the Bible for example when they did worship Baalim or Ashtoreth etc; that is what roused God's jealousy. So, basically you could just take that to mean He doesn't want anyone worshiping other gods. He is considered to have been married to Israel. The Covenant with Moses that they agreed too was included the command that they could have no other gods.

 

[ExVasterist]

I see where you're coming from with this. I think you're misunderstanding the scripture a little bit. It is not saying that God is mistrusting anyone. What God means when He says He's a jealous God is that people shouldn't worship any other gods or then they'll rouse His jealousy. So in the Bible for example when they did worship Baalim or Ashtoreth etc; that is what roused God's jealousy. So, basically you could just take that to mean He doesn't want anyone worshiping other gods. He is considered to have been married to Israel. The Covenant with Moses that they agreed too was included the command that they could have no other gods.

Correction, on their way to the Promised Land (where Israel would be built) they (Moses & his people) came across a city of people who helped to destroy their enemies. And in return?
Moses and his people killed everyone in the city including male children because they didn't follow the same God that Moses & his people followed, and later enslaved the female children.

That city was burned to the ground & the earth was salted so nothing would grow there.
And these people Worshipped "Baal".

I understand it quite well. And the bible was pretty clear about what Moses & his people did to their new "friends" that helped them & even offered to give them a home within their city.
Getting out of slavery themselves & then playing hypocrite later on.

 

[William Milverton]

.
.
I have good news for you
The bible is true. Christian interpretation is nonsense.


The God of the Old Testament was Lord Jesus
He created your universe and is now the supreme ruler of it
Jesus was (and is) the “angry, vengeful, jealous God” you refer to
This, of course, is quite different from the nonsense propaganda the Christian pharisees ‘teach’


Between Eden and The Crucifixion, Satan was the lawful ruler of Planet Earth
Satan is the god personification of Lust which divides into: Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy, and Pride.
He has no other gifts to offer his followers than these
So to establish religions he teamed up with Beelzebub


Beelzebub moves things from one place to another place instantly. He can also move things from planet to planet and from universe to universe. “Beam Me Up Scotty” is Beelzebub in action
During the period that Satan was the lawful ruler of Planet Earth he established tens of thousands of religions – revolving upon blood sacrifice from individual slayings to wholesale war – on nothing more than the ‘magic’ of Beelzebub.


These were the gods that Lord Jesus was “jealous” of in the Old Testament
They were ‘false gods’ because Satan had either invented them or corrupted the hell out of an existing belief


The Christian Pharisee propaganda that Lord Jesus is a perfect God is a lie
He was so beside himself with anger at the gullibility of humanity and at what Satan so easily persuaded them to do that he happily slayed humans, thousands at a time, throughout the Old Testament period.
“Beside himself with anger” is not perfection. It is personality
.
.

 

[shunyadragon]

Man if something I created and gave life too started worshiping something else. I'd be pretty upset as well. I mean if they want to "whore" themselves out to other gods they best be ready to receive the back of my hand.

I would prefer lightening, tornadoes, and meteorites

 

[74x12]

Correction, on their way to the Promised Land (where Israel would be built) they (Moses & his people) came across a city of people who helped to destroy their enemies. And in return?
Moses and his people killed everyone in the city including male children because they didn't follow the same God that Moses & his people followed, and later enslaved the female children.

That city was burned to the ground & the earth was salted so nothing would grow there.
And these people Worshipped "Baal".

I understand it quite well. And the bible was pretty clear about what Moses & his people did to their new "friends" that helped them & even offered to give them a home within their city.
Getting out of slavery themselves & then playing hypocrite later on.

I don't know of any city like what you're referring too. Please tell us what you're talking about. Maybe you mean the Amelekites but they attacked the Israelites first. Or perhaps you mean the Gibeonites, but the Israelites did not destroy the Gibeonites until Saul did so and Saul did this against God's will.

Rather than being about God's jealousy over His people. This argument has more to do with whether or not God has a right to judge people, nations, cities etc. God often uses other nations as instruments of His judgment. This is why Israel was attacking certain cities. God later even used the Assyrians and Babylonians to crush Israel when they sinned. I believe God has the right to judge and punish.

Nations that God punished in the Bible were doing more than just worship Baalim or whatever other gods. They were engaging in very depraved rites of worship. Including sacrificing children to their gods in horrible ways. Or else they were punished for attacking Israel.

 

[ExVasterist]

I don't know of any city like what you're referring too. Please tell us what you're talking about. Maybe you mean the Amelekites but they attacked the Israelites first. Or perhaps you mean the Gibeonites, but the Israelites did not destroy the Gibeonites until Saul did so and Saul did this against God's will.

Rather than being about God's jealousy over His people. This argument has more to do with whether or not God has a right to judge people, nations, cities etc. God often uses other nations as instruments of His judgment. This is why Israel was attacking certain cities. God later even used the Assyrians and Babylonians to crush Israel when they sinned. I believe God has the right to judge and punish.

Nations that God punished in the Bible were doing more than just worship Baalim or whatever other gods. They were engaging in very depraved rites of worship. Including sacrificing children to their gods in horrible ways. Or else they were punished for attacking Israel.

Numbers 31, verses 13 to 18
Moses, the priest Eleazar, and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses became furious with the officers, the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds, who were returning from the military campaign. “Have you let every female live? ” he asked them. “Yet they are the ones who, at Balaam’s advice, incited the Israelites to unfaithfulness against the Lord in the Peor incident, so that the plague came against the Lord’s community. So now, kill every male among the dependents and kill every woman who has gone to bed with a man, but keep alive for yourselves all the young females who have not gone to bed with a man.

God has said he would judge us in the afterlife, not while we are alive.
The fact is, Moses committed mass genocide in the name of God, just as the Catholic Church has done, as well as the Crusades, Inquisition, and every other religion that killed thousands because God.

Whatever happened to "Thou Shall Not Kill"?
Whatever happened to Marriage before sex?

And if this was in fact God, he ordered people to break the very laws that he was so adamant about others never breaking in order to enter his kingdom - was not understanding, not forgiving, not merciful, and making CHILDREN into sex slaves is far far from justice.
And if they were being sacrificed by these people, how is it better to be a sex slave?
What about those children who were killed for laying with a man? Its like killing a child because a Pedophile slept with them.

If that happened today, Moses would be seen as WORSE than Hitler. Even Hitler claimed that he was doing God's Will.
When is it right for one to kill millions in the name of God? Because its in the Bible or because they said "God told me to do it"? The answer is it is never right to kill anyone.

Oh they sinned against God? Please explain why Jesus didn't kill everyone who sinned against his Father. "Let any man who is not Guilty of sin, cast the first stone" not a single stone was tossed meaning they ALL sinned against God.