Jehovah’s Witnesses given €12,000 fine for incitement to hatred against ex-members

[Shadow Wolf]

Yes, they should’ve had more love for their family, instead of being selfish & getting disfellowshipped, thereby causing so much pain to their loved ones!

Says everyone looking to justify why they are abusive towards someone.
How about this time we begin with respecting people and not acting like an offended snowflake because someone left your religion. What's selfish and utterly without love is going along with this amd treating people like garbage and then blaming it on them. But, what can we really expect from Biblical teachings? After all, it will demand people be killed even though no real crime has taken place and blame the sinner for their own murder rather than placing rightful blame and fault on a system that is so horribly corrupt and brutally violent and beyond redemption.
How about not shunning people and we won't have a problem.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's used by millions of people you would not deem as abusive. It's just that normal.

It's not normal, it is abusive.

 

[Samael_Khan]

1) "They say apostates lie":

Isn't this just a battle of ideas and beliefs? Atheists think Christians are lying; many Christians think Mormons are lying; Leftists think Right-wingers are liars and vice versa?; how is that slander in a way that is criminally actionable?

I don't know if it criminally actionable. But all those groups are certainly slandering others by the definition of the word. All slander is is making false statements damaging someone's reputation.

2) "they associate apostates with criminals":

So similies (and other figures of speech) are now criminal?

Not criminal I think. As in another post, I don't see insulting other people as something to be trialed for. But it is certainly damaging to someone's reputation if there is no proof for it.

3) "They call apostates mentally diseased"

See 2

Still slander.

4) "They say that apostates don't care about JW's, which would also imply that they don't care about their family.":

The whole point of religious belief is that the particular belief system is what will give you happiness in this life and the next. So for those who believe in that belief system, anyone who attempts to remove them from the path is removing them from their happiness and by definition does not care about them. What possible argument can there be against that?

That is not a very bright way of thinking about it. Especially from people who actively preach to others. They should very well know their own motivations for preaching and attempting to convert others, so it shouldn't be too farfetched for them to understand that others try to take them away from their religion because they care, no matter how misguided you might think they are. In fact there are many many Christians that understand this viewpoint.

Just a further note - the whole section you have quoted refers to people who go out of their way to come to the JW congregation to teach their own teaching that differ from the official dogma of the church. But this is what all organisations and clubs do. There is a certain value system and those who teach against it are told to leave.

No, you are wrong on that. Many muslims and Christians speak to ex members that speak out against their group, such as Christian vs atheist debates. They even bring these debates into the congregation. They understand that if they have the truth then it will withstand scrutiny. Most apostates of JW's that I know of don't even attend the congregation meetings anymore, their activism is outside the congregation.

And yes, if you disagree with a group you might be asked to leave, but most groups only go as far as that. It isn't normal for them to tell their believers to cut complete contact off from the person who left. And it also isn't normal for them to tell people in the group to not listen to anything that they have to say and to not even speak to them.

 

[Shakeel]

It's not normal, it is abusive.

Abuse is normal.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Abuse is normal.

Not really. Being abusive is most definitely abnormal behavior and is anti-social.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I'm not sure its always that easy.

My father was hoping for a Christian family. At some point in my teens, I realized I just did not believe in the Christian faith. I'm not sure it ever really took, but at that point, the fear factoring was starting to drop off and I was discovering what my beliefs really were. It did pain my dad when he learned of my new religious beliefs, but I didn't feel it was fair to lie. It wouldn't be fair to him, and it wouldn't be fair to me.

Sometimes you just can't make yourself believe something, even if it makes things easier. All in all, being truthful was the best option.

Fast forward about 20 years, my dad and I talk religion often. Neither of us wants to convert or convince the other. We share pieces of our scriptures with one another, and enjoy finding pieces of common ground. My dad is happy he got at least one religious child; my sisters all are very firm in their 'don't know, don't care' attitude regarding religion.

Most of the time, people that leave a religion aren't doing it to be difficult or defiant. They're just following their heart.

There’s a big difference, here:
When one is baptized as a JW, its because they understand what we teach, and have come to appreciate the depth of it. In fact, the brothers in their congregation lovingly meet with them, asking them heart-searching questions to make sure they do.

No one can just say, “l want to get baptized,” and then they do. That just can’t happen.

It requires a learning process, whereby they involve themselves in studying the Bible through the lens of those worshipping the One whom Jesus said ‘reveals’ His Word (Luke 10:21). And from what they’ve learned, they willingly make changes in their lifestyle, reflecting God’s standards of love, honesty, and moral chasteness in their conduct.

So there is every reason they should know full well, just what they are getting into before they dedicate their lives, and make a lifelong vow, to their Creator, Jehovah.

Their baptism symbolizes the dedication they’ve made. No one is considered a JW, until they are baptized.

So, no infant baptisms!!!!

I should point out, there have been millions who have studied the Bible w/ Jehovah’s Witnesses....attended meetings, even have gone out from door to door....that never got baptized. And They left.
We do not shun these ones.

Take care, my cousin.

 

[JustGeorge]

There’s a big difference, here:
When one is baptized as a JW, its because they understand what we teach, and have come to appreciate the depth of it. In fact, the brothers in their congregation lovingly meet with them, asking them heart-searching questions to make sure they do.

No one can just say, “l want to get baptized,” and then they do. That just can’t happen.

It requires a learning process, whereby they involve themselves in studying the Bible. And from they’ve learned, they willingly make changes in their lifestyle, reflecting God’s standards of love, honesty, and moral chasteness in their conduct.

So there is every reason they should know full well, just what they are getting into before they dedicate their lives, and make a lifelong vow, to their Creator, Jehovah.

Their baptism symbolizes the dedication they’ve made. No one is considered a JW, until they are baptized.

So, no infant baptisms!!!!

I should point out, there have been millions who have studied the Bible w/ Jehovah’s Witnesses....attended meetings, even have gone out from door to door....that never got baptized. And They left.
We do not shun these ones.

Take care, my cousin.

Thanks for the info.

Does this mean a child raised by JW parents must agree to be baptized in order to be considered a full member of the religion?

At what age can one consent to baptism?

(Just curious)

 

[Hockeycowboy]

@JustGeorge , thank you for the informative rating, for being amiable in discussing these issues!

You seem to want to understand, instead of rashly jumping to conclusions!
Really, though, I think some on this thread, know the facts, but are intentionally twisting them.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Thanks for the info.

Does this mean a child raised by JW parents must agree to be baptized in order to be considered a full member of the religion?

At what age can one consent to baptism?

(Just curious)

Good questions!
Yes, one must get baptized.

As far as age, I’m aware of some parents who were pushing their children into getting baptized. But then, the brothers make the call. Sometimes, they don’t approve their baptism, so the youth has to wait. I’ve even asked some parents to stop their urging, but just continue setting a good example.

I’ve known some 10-year-olds who’ve gotten baptized (they exhibited some very good qualities, and loved the ministry, i.e., going from door to door)....but that is rare.

 

[Secret Chief]

Abuse is normal.

No it is not.

 

[danieldemol]

In fact it may be in the best interest of yours and mine's mental welfare to rather keep our distance, especially if you will try to evangelise me to your point of view.

So when it comes to what non-JWs do because they believe it to be in the best interest of the JW one shouldn't interfere with the happiness of another, but when it comes to what JWs do to non-JWs all of a sudden what is in their best interest becomes of prime importance?

I smell special pleading in my opinion.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I've never referred to anyone as an 'unrepentant fornicator.' Have you?

Yes, of course; at that time, they were. As I said, people get DF’d for their attitude....and that can change.


One case several years ago that I was involved with, concerned a brother. After nine years of marriage, he actually committed adultery, and left his innocent wife (no kids were involved from the union, thank goodness).


Let me ask you something: how does God feel about adultery? Are adulterers who continue in such a course, receiving God’s blessings? No. But might such a person regain Jehovah’s favor, if he would “turn around”, and repent? Yes! — Acts of the Apostles 2:38-41.


What if nothing was done, and he never saw the need?


Fortunately, that person did see the need, to “set matters straight” w/ Jehovah. (https://biblehub.com/isaiah/1-18.htm ) He came back, and in less than a year, was reinstated.


A while later, he actually thanked me for “jarring his senses,” he said.

Calling him “unrepentant,” really made him think about the position he had put himself in.


We want them to readjust their thinking & come back....and many times, they do!


See, DF’ing not only keeps the congregation protected & morally clean, but it serves as discipline, which can lead to getting “right” with Jehovah God. —Hebrews 12 11.




He & and his wife divorced & never got back together, but they are cordial with each other.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, of course; at that time, they were. As I said, people get DF’d for their attitude....and that can change.


One case several years ago that I was involved with, concerned a brother. After nine years of marriage, he actually committed adultery, and left his innocent wife (no kids were involved from the union, thank goodness).


Let me ask you something: how does God feel about adultery? Are adulterers who continue in such a course, receiving God’s blessings? No. But might such a person regain Jehovah’s favor, if he would “turn around”, and repent? Yes! — Acts of the Apostles 2:38-41.


What if nothing was done, and he never saw the need?


Fortunately, that person did see the need, to “set matters straight” w/ Jehovah. (https://biblehub.com/isaiah/1-18.htm ) He came back, and in less than a year, was reinstated.


A while later, he actually thanked me for “jarring his senses,” he said.

Calling him “unrepentant,” really made him think about the position he had put himself in.


We want them to readjust their thinking & come back....and many times, they do!


See, DF’ing not only keeps the congregation protected & morally clean, but it serves as discipline, which can lead to getting “right” with Jehovah God. —Hebrews 12 11.




He & and his wife divorced & never got back together, but they are cordial with each other.

Hi @Hockeycowboy

Thank you for your response.

Unfortunately adultery is all too common these days. In the country I reside there is no law that prevents a man leaving his wife for another woman or having an affair. Some studies suggest that up to half of men and a quarter of women will be involved in an extra marital affair at some stage in their lives.

Baha’i laws are clear that sexual relationships are the right and privilege between a man and a woman who are married. Its very clear that extramarital relationships are not acceptable. The standard is similar to that which is outlined in the Christian Bible though more clearly stated.

It is certainly a challenge for a community to constructively respond to a member who chooses to break their marriage vows and laws that are set out for our protection.

We don’t have clergy or ministers in the Baha’i Faith, instead elected Assemblies of nine community members in good standing each year. It is the Assembly’s responsibility to meet and counsel couples who are having difficulties.

In my experience sometimes couples can recover from infidelity but many don’t. When children are involved the challenges are even greater. Ultimately the relationship between God and the adulterer is profoundly affected but with other community members too. However in my view creating a circumstance where family members are expelled and children’s contact with one parent is cut off, simply compounds the harm for all concerned.

 

[JustGeorge]

We don’t have clergy or ministers in the Baha’i Faith, instead elected Assemblies of nine community members in good standing each year. It is the Assembly’s responsibility to meet and counsel couples who are having difficulties.

@adrian009 ,

I have some questions, but don't want to derail the thread. Do you mind if I make a new thread and quote this in the Q&A section? My intentions are good.

 

[Deeje]

Hi @Hockeycowboy

Thank you for your response.

Unfortunately adultery is all too common these days. In the country I reside there is no law that prevents a man leaving his wife for another woman or having an affair. Some studies suggest that up to half of men and a quarter of women will be involved in an extra marital affair at some stage in their lives.

Baha’i laws are clear that sexual relationships are the right and privilege between a man and a woman who are married. Its very clear that extramarital relationships are not acceptable. The standard is similar to that which is outlined in the Christian Bible though more clearly stated.

It is certainly a challenge for a community to constructively respond to a member who chooses to break their marriage vows and laws that are set out for our protection.

We don’t have clergy or ministers in the Baha’i Faith, instead elected Assemblies of nine community members in good standing each year. It is the Assembly’s responsibility to meet and counsel couples who are having difficulties.

In my experience sometimes couples can recover from infidelity but many don’t. When children are involved the challenges are even greater. Ultimately the relationship between God and the adulterer is profoundly affected but with other community members too. However in my view creating a circumstance where family members are expelled and children’s contact with one parent is cut off, simply compounds the harm for all concerned.

Disfellowshipping does not keep children away from the offending parent. Parental rights are granted by the courts, but if a child is of age, and requests not to see the offending parent because of feeling a sense of betrayal towards the innocent parent, then no court order can force a child to be in that parent's company, if it will cause psychological damage. The parent who committed the offense would have to bear the responsibility for what they did, and cop that on the chin. We try very hard to keep families together, with many meetings and counsel offered, but sometimes it just doesn't work. It then becomes what is best for the child, not the parents.

Separation and divorce is rough on kids but keeping them in a stable and loving environment is more important that any parental rights under law. If it can be proven that a child is suffering under the court appointed arrangements, with physical or emotional abuse or trauma taking place, then the court will redirect matters.
It is especially distressing for children to see their parent with another partner and so that has to be handled delicately.

It sounds as if Baha'i have a similar stand to us on immorality. We do not have clergy either, but appointed shepherds, who are responsible before God to keep immoral people out of the congregation, will do their best to help those who are struggling with their spirituality. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) Only a person who is spiritually weak will betray their family and their God by breaking God's moral laws.

Disfellowshipping is discipline from God. As Paul wrote at Hebrews 12:11...
"True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but it is painful; yet afterward, it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."

Like sending a erring child to time out.....it is designed to make someone stop and reevaluate what they have done, and what they have lost as a result. If God didn't care then there would be no discipline administered and that person would miss out on becoming a citizen of God's Kingdom. It is not hateful....just the opposite.

 

[Dawnofhope]

@adrian009 ,

I have some questions, but don't want to derail the thread. Do you mind if I make a new thread and quote this in the Q&A section? My intentions are good.

No problem

 

[Thanda]

So when it comes to what non-JWs do because they believe it to be in the best interest of the JW one shouldn't interfere with the happiness of another, but when it comes to what JWs do to non-JWs all of a sudden what is in their best interest becomes of prime importance?

I smell special pleading in my opinion.

I think there is a fundamental difference you are missing. The church (from I know) tells its own members to stay away from, shun or otherwise distrust apostates. The apostates can have no fight against this as they have no natural or legal right to the association of anyone, including JWs.

So I don't understand why there is a confusion.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Disfellowshipping does not keep children away from the offending parent. Parental rights are granted by the courts, but if a child is of age, and requests not to see the offending parent because of feeling a sense of betrayal towards the innocent parent, then no court order can force a child to be in that parent's company, if it will cause psychological damage. The parent who committed the offense would have to bear the responsibility for what they did, and cop that on the chin. We try very hard to keep families together, with many meeting and counsel offered, but sometimes it just doesn't work. It then becomes what is best for the child, not the parents.

Separation and divorce is rough on kids but keeping them in a stable and loving environment is more important that any parental rights under law. If it can be proven that a child is suffering under the court appointed arrangements, with physical or emotional abuse or trauma taking place, then the court will redirect matters.
It is especially distressing for children to see their parent with another partner and so that has to be handled delicately.

It sounds as if Baha'i have a similar stand to us on immorality. We do not have clergy either, but appointed shepherds, who are responsible before God to keep immoral people out of the congregation, will do their best to help those who are struggling with their spirituality. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) Only a person who is spiritually weak will betray their family and their God by breaking God's moral laws.

Disfellowshipping is discipline from God. As Paul wrote at Hebrews 12:11...
"True, no discipline seems for the present to be joyous, but it is painful; yet afterward, it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."

Like sending a erring child to time out.....it is designed to make someone stop and reevaluate what they have done, and what they have lost as a result. If God didn't care then there would be no discipline administered and that person would miss out on becoming a citizen of God's Kingdom. It is not hateful....just the opposite.

Sure, but I have a sense if it weren’t for the courts parents and children would be cut off from each other by decree of your church.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

...children’s contact with one parent is cut off...

Now where did that come in?
We don't get involved w/ those issues! That's between the parents.
If a husband / father gets disfellowshipped due to any reason, he's still the head of his house.

In fact, if he did commit adultery yet his wife agrees to stay with him, which means she forgave him - and he doesn't want to.leave - that indicates he is tru!y sorry...he may not even get DF'd! He will lose any priveleges in the congregation for a time, though.

You see, disfellowshipping is about attitude. We all fall short, many times...But how do we feel about it?
As Psalm 34:18, World English Bible says:
"Yahweh is near to those who have a broken heart, and saves those who have a crushed spirit."

As shepherds, we strive to follow the example set by Yahweh / Jehovah. We are here to help.

But keep in mind, God's Word also states:
"“Jehovah, a God merciful and gracious, . . . pardoning error and transgression and sin, but by no means will he give exemption from punishment.”—Ex. 34:6, 7.

A good explanation of this, is here:

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1974604

Take care, my cousin!

 

[Samael_Khan]

Sure, but I have a sense if it weren’t for the courts parents and children would be cut off from each other by decree of your church.

This is an interesting point I haven't thought of before. It would be interesting to look into.

Something to consider here is whether the child is baptised or not. But even then, the idea is that children get saved through the believing parent when they are a minor as they are under both parents protection which is a biblical concept according to JW interpretation. If they aren't baptised then they are allowed to speak to anybody they want, and at worst would be considered bad association and possibly soft shunning could be in effect on the part of the congregation if the congregation thinks that way.