Jehovah Witnesses

[Subduction Zone]

Oh I understand. You don't want first hand testimony. You want testimony from opposers and enemies. Any reasonable person can understand what you are doing.

I want reliable testimony. You should not be so paranoid. That is the sort of reaction that a cult member would have.

 

[JustGeorge]

Oh I understand. You don't want first hand testimony. You want testimony from opposers and enemies. Any reasonable person can understand what you are doing.

Honestly, material from a neutral third party would be most desirable.

 

[Eyes to See]

You do not seem to understand. Since the Jehovah's Witnesses are the one's in doubt here they are simply not a proper source for "proof". They can testify, but they would not be given too much credibility for too many reasons. I don't need to search your source. I can find what I need elsewhere.

Here is something for you. There was someone who did his own research. He set out to prove Jehovah's Witnesses wrong. Like you he had heard many unfavorable things about them and he set out to research and write a book to expose them. Do you know what happened? He converted to Christianity and became a Jehovah's Witness.

His first-hand testimony as he did his research and his interviews is a really good read. The book just came to my mind, I read it a couple decades ago. I think you might find it a good read if you are looking for the point of view of an outsider doing research to prove Jehovah's Witnesses wrong. The book is called Jehovah's Witnesses the New World Society by Marely Cole.

I did a google search and it appears that the book is available on internet archive:

Jehovah's Witnesses The New World Society by Marley Cole : Marley Cole : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

 

[Eyes to See]

I want reliable testimony. You should not be so paranoid. That is the sort of reaction that a cult member would have.

Here is another resource. This time a member that was right in the headquarters through the beginning years, an autobiographical look at the early years that you say have been glossed over. It is a great read. This one I also read several decades ago. And recommend it it's entitled Faith On The March by A. H. Macmillan. It also is available on internet archive:

Faith On The March By A. H. Macmillan : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Those other books I recommend I really encourage you to read them. If you are a fair-minded person there is no doubt the information available will drastically change your mind and opinion.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Honestly, material from a neutral third party would be most desirable.

Unfortunately neutral third parties are classified as "enemies" if they disagree with the present day JW narrative. I posted a link to such a case. Not something written by an ex JW with a possible chip on his shoulder. There are quite a few of those to be found too. They sometimes post copies of old works.

 

[YoursTrue]

oh so many dont understand Matthew 24:5 the goats also know of Jesus ,they are even saying nice things about him ...how ever

As a lamb, I had to be pushed a little.

 

[Bree]

So, there are roughly 8.23 million JWs the world over. That's a sizable amount of people in a faith group.

But according to your traditions, only 144000 will actually get to go to heaven.

That seems like a scam to me. What's the deal?

The deal is that mankind was created to live on earth, not heaven.

Those who are going to heaven are being hand selected by God to perform the very important task to ruling as kings and priests along with Jesus Christ, to govern the earth and all the billions of people who will continue to live on earth. They will form a heavenly kingdom government.

AS is the case in all countries around the world, the ruling government is very small in number in comparison to the people who live under that government. In the heavenly government, there will be 144,000 plus Jesus to rule all of mankind.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

I don't need to use a biased source to support my claims. It is that simple.

But that’s just it...you are. Opposers and enemies of Jehovah’s Witnesses are very biased sources, and they were your source.

EDIT: I just now noticed the source you quoted, was Wikipedia. (Not an opposer.) Usually, when we are attacked, a quote from an ex-JW is posted.
But you didn’t use an ex-JW source....my bad.

You did write in post#8:

They have predicted the end of the world at least three or four times

And those were the dates I specifically asked you for; only one was “end of the world.” As I had already stated.

But as @Eyes to See posted in #28 (and I appreciate it), we have our history online, mistakes and all.

No one claims infallibility in the organization....
even in ancient Israel, the prophet Nathan said something in error (2 Samuel 7), but it was his zeal, his *eagerness* for Jehovah’s purpose to be accomplished, that got him in trouble. But Jehovah still used him....

And David still listened to & trusted him.

 

[Subduction Zone]

But that’s just it...you are. Opposers and enemies of Jehovah’s Witnesses are very biased sources, and they were your source.

But as @Eyes to See posted in #28 (and I appreciate it), we have our history online, mistakes and all.

No one claims infallibility in the organization....
even in ancient Israel, the prophet Nathan said something in error (2 Samuel 7), but it was his zeal, his *eagerness* for Jehovah’s purpose to be accomplished, that got him in trouble. But Jehovah still used him....

And David still listened to & trusted him.

It is quite the opposite. JW's are not allowed to have an open mind. It is a very controlling sect. And that is shown by this typical over reaction. People that disagree with you are rarely "opposers" and practically never "enemies". My source was very neutral. It just showed you to be wrong. And the leadership may not claim infallibility, but there is no doubt that they act that way.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It is quite the opposite..... My source was very neutral.

Yes; Wikipedia, they’re not too bad. I was wrong to label them “opposers”. (I edited post #48....
I did not recognize that your source was Wikipedia. I’m so used to people quoting from ex-JW’s, some of whom have a bone to pick because they were kicked out )

JW's are not allowed to have an open mind. It is a very controlling sect. And that is shown by this typical over reaction. People that disagree with you are rarely "opposers" and practically never "enemies"

Depends on your definition of “open mind.” If you think confining sexual activity to the marriage arrangement, between husbands & wives only, is controlling....well, that’s the Bible, not JW’s. But adhering to these standards, in combination w/ the Bible’s guidelines as to how husbands and wives should treat each other, results in strong family units, havens for children to grow up in.

And the “typical over reaction”, was mine due to the ‘end of the world prediction at least three or four times’ comment, which was inaccurate.

It just showed you to be wrong

And the leadership may not claim infallibility, but there is no doubt that they act that way.

They act with love and concern. We all try to...at times we fail to measure up.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yes; Wikipedia, they’re not too bad. I was wrong to label them “opposers”. (I edited post #48....
I did not recognize that your source was Wikipedia. I’m so used to people quoting from ex-JW’s, some of whom have a bone to pick because they were kicked out )

I could have used them too. They will at times have photographs of the works that they are quoting. But I like to try to go neutral with my sources.

Depends on your definition of “open mind.” If you think confining sexual activity to the marriage arrangement, between husbands & wives only, is controlling....well, that’s the Bible, not JW’s. But adhering to these standards, in combination w/ the Bible’s guidelines as to how husbands and wives should treat each other, results in strong family units, havens for children to grow up in.

It is actually your sects interpretation of the Bible. Other Christians may disagree.

And the “typical over reaction”, was mine due to the ‘end of the world prediction at least three or four times’ comment, which was inaccurate.

It was accurate enough since all of them were at the very least predictions of events that told the end of the world was coming and they all failed.

They act with love and concern. We all try to...at times we fail to measure up.

They really do not. You should listen to some of the people that left. They can't all be wrong.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Yes, Jesus chose His Apostles to establish His church and spread the gospel. That was a separate mission than that of the 144,000 during the Tribulation period.



“Nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the children of Israel, according to verses 5–8.

These 144,000 Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God. They are kept safe from the divine judgments and from the wrath of the Antichrist. They can freely perform their mission during the tribulation.“

Who are the 144,000? | GotQuestions.org

Revelation 7:8...
There was no “tribe of Joseph” in literal Israel. Therefore, they all weren’t / aren’t literal Jews.

 

[firedragon]

So, there are roughly 8.23 million JWs the world over. That's a sizable amount of people in a faith group.

But according to your traditions, only 144000 will actually get to go to heaven.

That seems like a scam to me. What's the deal?

What I would like to understand is the strength of the JW's. Since I was a child, in multiple countries, I have received their watchtower literature. This kind of funding is not just random. For this kind of marketing and branding, I must learn from them.

 

[Bree]

What I would like to understand is the strength of the JW's. Since I was a child, in multiple countries, I have received their watchtower literature. This kind of funding is not just random. For this kind of marketing and branding, I must learn from them.

all things are possible with Gods backing. If God wants something accomplished, he can accomplish it with very little. We are small in number, but our strength comes from doing things theocratically. Our organisation is being governed by Jehovah God, the most powerful person in the universe.

Powerful nations have tried to erradicate us and our preaching work....everyone from Hiltler to the USA & Russia.... but they fail to end us because they can't win against God.

 

[firedragon]

all things are possible with Gods backing. If God wants something accomplished, he can accomplish it with very little. We are small in number, but our strength comes from doing things theocratically. Our organisation is being governed by Jehovah God, the most powerful person in the universe.

Powerful nations have tried to erradicate us and our preaching work....everyone from Hiltler to the USA & Russia.... but they fail to end us because they can't win against God.

A small group of people becoming successful is a case study, but is not testimony for God's hand. If success is the benchmark, catholics were so successful the entire universe must worship their concept of theology and God.

Thanks.

 

[cataway]

A small group of people becoming successful is a case study, but is not testimony for God's hand. If success is the benchmark, catholics were so successful the entire universe must worship their concept of theology and God.

Thanks.

Matthew 24:5 humm it seems there are many ,worldly successful , that fall short . there is but one true God . logically there can only be one way to gain his favor. that would be his way

 

[firedragon]

Matthew 24:5 humm it seems there are many ,worldly successful , that fall short . there is but one true God . logically there can only be one way to gain his favor. that would be his way

I didnt mean to do a criticism of your theology Cataway.

 

[JustGeorge]

**Moved to Religious Debates**​

 

[InChrist]

Revelation 7:8...
There was no “tribe of Joseph” in literal Israel. Therefore, they all weren’t / aren’t literal Jews.

“Technically, there is no tribe of Joseph. Instead, Joseph received a “double blessing,” and his two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, each became his own tribe (Genesis 48; Joshua 14:4; Ezekiel 47:13). The Bible does, on occasion, refer to a “tribe of Joseph” (Numbers 13:11; 36:5; Revelation 7:8). However, in the contexts, the “tribe of Joseph” seems to be referring to either the tribe of Ephraim or Manasseh, or to the “house of Joseph,” which included Ephraim and Manasseh.”

What can we learn from the tribe of Joseph? | GotQuestions.org

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Let us reason what just happened through, using say, The New York Times as an example.

Someone claims that The New York Times has changed their viewpoints over the years, but has hidden their agenda up, and you cannot get to know what they used to believe. So someone points out that they can look into the archives of The New York Times for it is all in the public record. But then the person claims that whatever is in the archive is biased because it is from The New York Times. Then say they need to read an outside source to really know what The New York Times published in the past.

You realize how silly that sounds?

Doesn't sound silly at all. In fact, it sounds extremely rational.
If the new york times has thing in their past that they would like to hide from the public, they can easily edit them or remove them from their own archive that they have control over.

The real question here, is why do you assume that the new york times (in this case) is indeed as honest as they claim they are about their own past?

Wouldn't an archive of the new york times that is NOT under the control of the new york times be a more independent source then the archive that IS under their control?