That sleep is not known beyond a doubt as actual sleep though.
No one said it was a literal sleep. Jesus likened death to sleep and so did Paul. In the scripture I quoted from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-16, notice how long those "dead in Christ" were to "sleep"......it was until "the coming of the Lord". We know that this event was centuries into the future when Paul wrote those words. Was Paul (or any of the other apostles) aware of that? Or were they expecting it to be imminent? If you think about death as like a state of suspended animation, those who are dead are not conscious of the passage of time, so when they awaken, it will be as though they closed their eyes only moments ago. People awakening from a coma are not conscious of how long they have been 'sleeping' either. When there is no consciousness, time ceases for that person. I do not find that a difficult concept to process.
There are other passages that call this view into question. That's the whole problem with the Bible to begin with. It contains seemingly contradictory statements, which I'd expect if many authors in fact wrote it.
The seeming contradictions are the result of misinterpretation. The Bible is not wrong, humans want to make the words fit their own ideas.
Can you cite these "other passages"?
Revelation depicts the elders, seemingly the martyrs and saints- as very much conscious within the presence of God. You also haven't shown that your understanding about the medium episode is correct, but I'll get to that in short order.
Revelation is presented in "signs"....which means that there are many portions that are symbolic. At the time of the Revelation's fulfillment (The Lord's Day) there were many things that were to take place.....we have witnessed them ourselves. We believe that we are in the Lord's day right now.
Revelation 20 is an amazing chapter revealing many aspects of the kingdom. It begins with binding and abyssing of satan so that he and his demons cannot mislead the nations for the duration of the 1,000 year reign of Christ.
The thrones are for the "chosen ones" who will rule with Jesus in heaven. They 'came to life' (were resurrected) and assumed their heavenly positions. This is "the first resurrection" and it is to immortal, sinless heavenly life for those chosen ones only. "The rest of the dead" will not achieve sinless life on earth until the kingdom has brought all humans into reconciliation with God. At the end of the 1,000 years, satan is released to test all humans one last time before he and all who follow him are destroyed forever. Only then can God continue with his first purpose....to have a perfect race of material beings to inhabit a beautifully prepared planet and take care of it and its other inhabitants, as we were meant to in the first place. If you read the Genesis account, Earth is where we were suppose to live forever.
Again, the Bible does not at all make that clear. Some verses say the earth will be rolled up like a scroll. Others say the old earth and heaven actually pass away. This is another instance that I suspect you won't be able to demonstrate it's the same earth made new, as your organization thinks.
Symbolism becomes apparent when you see the big picture. Most in Christendom are so hung up on going to heaven, they miss the whole purpose of why God placed us on earth. JW's do not believe that the planet will be made new....we see the flood of Noah's day as a pictorial example of what will occur again at the end.
Jesus said....
"For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be."
We believe that another cleansing of the earth is about to take place...only this time not by water. The planet is perfect, but humanity are not, and they are destroying the only home they have in their quest for wealth and power. God is again warning them about his intentions, and again...no one is listening but the comparative "few" Jesus said will be saved. (Matthew 7:13-14)
God could have kept it from happening if he'd actually wanted. That is obvious to all of us not seeing through Christian-tinted glasses.
Yes, he could have if he had created robots or pre-programmed automatons. We alone are created in God's image....we alone possess God's attributes and qualities and we alone can serve our God out of love and of our own free will. Any parent will appreciate how it feels when their children follow their direction willingly, because they always have their children's best interests at heart. Love, not fear should motivate free willed beings.
To this and everything else you posted. All the verses and such. You have not demonstrated that it was not Samuel. Furthermore, you've arguably helped make my case for me. Because if the ancient Jews like Saul indeed believed death was the actual state of the dead- why would he even ask a medium to call up a dead person in the first place?
Saul had by this time lost the plot. He was so desperate to know his fate that he resorted to a practice that he had helped to eradicate from the land at God's command. The ancient Jews had no belief in an spiritual afterlife. Their sole belief was in a literal, physical resurrection back to this life, but under the rule of their Messiah's kingdom.
Mediums were in league with the demons, which is why God banned them.....so there was no trusting what they said. If the living prophets would not speak to Saul, what made him think a dead one would? He was breaking God's law.
After listing all the pre-Christian men and women of faith, Paul wrote in Hebrews 11:13 ...
."In faith all of these died, although they did not receive the fulfillment of the promises; but they saw them from a distance and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land."
They understood that God's promises would be fulfilled at some time in the future. And viewed their lives in this world ruled by God's enemies as temporary. How often were they living in foreign lands governed by pagan rulers?
Christians too were told to be "no part of the world" (John 15:18-21) because it is "passing away". (1 John 2:15-17)
Nice try, but Jews don't accept the New Testament, so they don't acknowledge anything it says.
The Jews like many other nations were influenced by the Greeks. Immortality of the soul is a Platonic Greek notion, adopted in later centuries....but it is not found in their scripture.
As for Christians, they all argue among one another how these verses of condemnation apply to one another. You have no superior ground here.
That is true....however I believe that it is God who chooses to enlighten those in whom he finds the right heart condition. Remember Jesus likened hearts to 'soil' in which the seed of truth is planted? (Matthew 13:1-9) The truth will only grow in the right heart. God will nurture it. Only he knows who we really are.
Oh I knew you would say that. Forgive me for finding that over-simplistic and merely dismissive of all the religions of the world- each with their own theology and explanations.
Sometimes it is the simplicity that makes everything so clear. It is a jumbled mess to those who are lost in it. I see some people on these boards who are completely lost in the maze......they don't know what or who to believe....some like to 'shop' for their beliefs and create their very own religion.....some look for a religion that suits 'them' with little thought about whether it suits God....others have abandoned religion altogether.....
You have heard the illustration of how to hide a 40 ft tree out in the middle of a cleared field? If you have time up your sleeve, you plant a virtual forest of similar looking trees all around it and eventually, it will be almost impossible to identify the original tree....Satan has used that method to his advantage. "Confusion" is his middle name.
If I answer you, you'll just ask how I know that's true, even if I appeal to the authority Buddhism claims.
So you see where the impasse cannot be breached by us mere mortals. Only God can make the truth clear to those to whom he wants to reveal it. He is choosing us as much as we think we are choosing ways to approach him. (John 6:44)
I like discussion, but not spinning my wheels.
I'm not a mechanic......just a messenger.
