Jehovah's Witness' not learnt from Catholic church

[IndigoChild5559]

I do not know of any other organization that calls itself a "spiritual paradise" which is "God approved" and "Spirit-directed". They can't have it both ways.

I'm never really sure when I should bow out and let Catholics take over the defense of their own organization. I mean, after all, I'm a Jew, not a Catholic.

However, what I'm trying to do here is approach this from an objective POV. I'm saying that this is a problem that touches us all. Jews, Christians, Hindus, Atheists... It's a people problem, not a Catholic problem. For the reasons I discussed in my earlier post, Catholics just get blasted for it on the news all the time, even though it happens to the Baptists, the Scouts, Little League, etc. Including the cover up. The problem is not with Catholics claiming to be God approved when they are not. The problem is with the evil inclination of humankind.

 

[savagewind]

I'm never really sure when I should bow out and let Catholics take over the defense of their own organization. I mean, after all, I'm a Jew, not a Catholic.

However, what I'm trying to do here is approach this from an objective POV. I'm saying that this is a problem that touches us all. Jews, Christians, Hindus, Atheists... It's a people problem, not a Catholic problem. For the reasons I discussed in my earlier post, Catholics just get blasted for it on the news all the time, even though it happens to the Baptists, the Scouts, Little League, etc. Including the cover up. The problem is not with Catholics claiming to be God approved when they are not. The problem is with the evil inclination of humankind.

I am not aware of the Catholics calling the church those things. The Jehovah's Witnesses do it. The fact that pedophiles are free to do their misdeeds to unsuspecting Jehovah's Witness children makes the Jehovah's Witnesses' claim that theirs is a spiritual paradise a lie. It is true that evil exists everywhere but honest to God, it doesn't exist in Paradise. That evil doesn't exist in Paradise is the reason why it is a paradise.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I am not aware of the Catholics calling the church those things. The Jehovah's Witnesses do it. The fact that pedophiles are free to do their misdeeds to unsuspecting Jehovah's Witness children makes the Jehovah's Witnesses' claim that theirs is a spiritual paradise a lie. It is true that evil exists everywhere but honest to God, it doesn't exist in Paradise. That evil doesn't exist in Paradise is the reason why it is a paradise.

I agree. I didn't address that particular point because I felt the other point was more important. Also, I'm not as familiar with JW's. My one friend who grew up JW refuses to talk about her upbringing and I've been able to coax very little out of her.

Catholics take the position that "the Church is a hospital for sinners." I can't tell you how many times I've heard that. It makes their hearts ache when these things happen, but I don't think it surprises them that their leaders sin--they believe its part of the human condition.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

I do not know of any other organization that calls itself a "spiritual paradise" which is "God approved" and "Spirit-directed". They can't have it both ways.

Let us not forget that JWs have incessantly talked about their "clean" organization when engaging in criticism of other religions.

 

[RedhorseWoman]

I agree. I didn't address that particular point because I felt the other point was more important. Also, I'm not as familiar with JW's. My one friend who grew up JW refuses to talk about her upbringing and I've been able to coax very little out of her.

Catholics take the position that "the Church is a hospital for sinners." I can't tell you how many times I've heard that. It makes their hearts ache when these things happen, but I don't think it surprises them that their leaders sin--they believe its part of the human condition.

I'm not surprised that your friend who grew up as a JW is loathe to discuss her upbringing. Very often, former JWs are embarrassed about their former religious ties and are afraid that people will either laugh at them or shun them. It's part of the indoctrination that JWs receive.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm sure that there were some Catholics who defended the Church and vilified the victims, but most Catholics that I have known were appalled at what was occurring in the Church and wanted changes to be made.

The JWs, on the other hand, except for a very few (and from what I've seen they could be counted on one hand) will adamantly declare that the JW organization is "clean" and that they have no problem with pedophiles. Even if they finally admit that there might have been a "few" pedophiles who "sneaked in" to the congregations, they declare that such ones were always thrown out, or, if they claimed repentance, were watched constantly and were never put in positions of authority.

That's where the Catholic Church was ~50 years ago. Watch the JWs over the next few decades as they lose

From my personal experience, I have found that that is not true. Not only does the JW organization not involve secular authorities, they also frequently do nothing to the pedophile, who remains as a JW "in good standing" and even if there is some punishment meted out to a confessed pedophile, the congregation at large is never informed that they have a sexual predator in their midst.

In my home congregation, there was a pedophile who molested his natural children and was reported to the elders, and later molested his stepdaughter and her male cousin and was again reported to the elders, but no one in the congregation knew about these multiple molestations, and at least as long as I attended that congregation, the pedophile was never disfellowshipped or reported to the police.

Right: the JWs cling to their "two witnesses" rule, as well as their rules on handling discipline internally, as points of doctrine despite the cover this gives to predators... just as the Catholic Church has done with the "seal of confession."

 

[savagewind]

Let us not forget that JWs have incessantly talked about their "clean" organization when engaging in criticism of other religions.

To the child who is treated badly by a member of "God's clean organization" and his or her family the situation is not paradise but it becomes hell. And think of what their opinion of the Holy Spirit that people who were taught to believe the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses is governed by it but who find out that they count as nothing whenever something like what we are talking about happens becomes. Why does the Holy Spirit allow such men and women in? And HOW is it allowing some men like that to become persons of authority? So, either the whole family has to decide that the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses isn't what it claims to be or they will naturally have to doubt the power of the Holy Spirit. Is there any other alternative?

But, both decisions have to cause a stumbling.

What does the Bible say about stumbling a person who has put his or her faith in Jesus?

I think it says something to the effect that it would be better for the person (or organization) to never have been born.

It is in vain that they worship God because they teach men's rules. Matthew 15:9

I do not know if the Catholic Church teaches that it is a safe place and that the men are appointed to it by The Holy Spirit.

 

[ecco]

I stumbled across the following from Catholic Bridge.

What about the Catholic castration of choir boys in the Middle Ages?

We got an email that said:

In 1599, Pope Clement VIII gave the ok for castrated young boy's to sing in the Church. This went on for the next 280 years or so until Pope Leo in 1878 finally stopped it. So many years and so many popes not doing anything about it and even approving it is beyond me.
​

I had never heard of that before. It's beyond appalling.

I was equally appalled by the response.

None of the Popes from 1599-1878 have been canonized as Saints (only Pious IX and Innocent XI have been declared Blessed). That indicates that the Catholic Church is not too impressed with most of its Popes during that time
​

None of the Popes canonized?!
the Catholic Church is not too impressed with most of its Popes?!

​

No outrage at past horrors! Just a "Not great Popes" apologetic.

Is it any wonder that the culture in today's church is as it is?




ETA:The lost voice: a history of the castrato. - PubMed - NCBI

The initial stimulus for the production of castrati came from the Sistine Chapel in Rome, to provide singers for the complex church music of the time. The second reason was the coming of opera to Italy at the beginning of the 17th century. Boys were castrated between the ages of 7 and 9 years, and underwent a long period of voice training. A small number became international opera stars, of whom the most famous was Farinelli, whose voice ranged over three octaves. By the end of the 18th century, fashions in opera had changed so that the castrati declined except in the Vatican, where the Sistine Chapel continued to employ castrati until 1903.​

 

[metis]

Is it any wonder that the culture in today's church is as it is?

But times are indeed a factor, and if one checks out other religious institutions they'll find plenty of dirt by today's standards. However, with that being said, I do agree that what was done is appalling.