Jehovah's Witnesses and the king james bible

[AdamjEdgar]

Recall, when i asked you how you know your source is true, what your response was? Exactly.

Do you intend using the argument, the modern "bible is plagiarising God by not including his actual name"? My understanding is that Jews tended not to speak Gods name.

Also, if one is not well educated, how can that person ever know that their source isn't true actually? Is your answer to this question going to be "because the faithful and discreet slave class tell me so"? I think if that is your answer, i will take education over that option...i would rather have the capacity to study these things for myself in order to validate them.

Your last question essentially asks "does the bible support trinitarianism"? That is what we have been talking about.

My point is, the bible does support trinitarianism (overwhelmingly so), but that poorly educated persons are easily hoodwinked into thinking it does not support such a doctrine.

 

[nPeace]

Do you intend using the argument, the modern "bible is plagiarising God by not including his actual name"? My understanding is that Jews tended not to speak Gods name.

Which Jews? As far as we ... well, most people at least, know, the Jews knew and used God's name. Jesus, a Jew, came amd he used the writings of earlier Jews, amd he too, used the name of God.
So you must be referring to later Jews who disrespected God.
Why would you agree with, and support their wickedness?

Also, if one is not well educated, how can that person ever know that their source isn't true actually? Is your answer to this question going to be "because the faithful and discreet slave class tell me so"? I think if that is your answer, i will take education over that option...i would rather have the capacity to study these things for myself in order to validate them.

Educated from whose standpoint.
JWs are better educated than most people, in what God values.
According to Jesus, "Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet will get a prophet’s reward, and whoever receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will get a righteous man’s reward." (Matthew 10:41)
Which reward are you seeking? The one from men? John 5:41-44

...and no, my answer has never ever been.. "because the faithful and discreet slave class tell me so".
Although, that would not necessarily be a wrong answer, in light of Matthew 24:45 - “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?
Also... Hebrews 13:17 . . .Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.
Would you agree, or no?

May I ask where you get your misinformation from, and why you so readily believe this misinformation?
Does that really seem to you like a person that "would rather have the capacity to study these things for myself"?
It doesn't sound that way to me, That sounds like a gullible person, interested only in what tickles the ear - in other words, what they want to hear.
Not so?

Who told you that I say that? Or that JWs say that? Is it your pastors, or do you read it on websites, or see it on youtube videos?
You can't believe everything you see and hear, and to get to study and know for yourself, you need to make sure your source is reliable.
Right now, your source isn't.

Your last question essentially asks "does the bible support trinitarianism"? That is what we have been talking about.
Have we? I was not aware. I thought we were discussing the use of the definite and non-use of the indefinite article in translation. Forgive me for being so slow.

My point is, the bible does support trinitarianism (overwhelmingly so), but that poorly educated persons are easily hoodwinked into thinking it does not support such a doctrine.

Again, poorly educated in what?
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 ; 2 Corinthians 3:5, 6 ; James 2:5
Why are you happy with such a position? Are you seeking favor with men, rather than God?
That's not Christian, is it.

Being educated at Theologian schools, and Universities is not a requirement of God, and a requirement for his approval.
He does not favor you because of that.
(Acts 4:13 13 Now when they beheld the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were men unlettered and ordinary, they got to wondering. And they began to recognize about them that they used to be with Jesus;

I take my teaching from scripture, which are from God, and his Christ.
It tells me these things in the book of John...
"Just as the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; remain in my love. If you observe my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love." (John 15:9, 10)

If Jesus was God, he would not need to observe the commandments of the father, to have his approval.
Why would you think that God-man would need to worship God?
Can you please explain, and help me to understand this view.
I'm just going to do more listening to you on this topic.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Which Jews? As far as we ... well, most people at least, know, the Jews knew and used God's name. Jesus, a Jew, came amd he used the writings of earlier Jews, amd he too, used the name of God.
So you must be referring to later Jews who disrespected God.
Why would you agree with, and support their wickedness?


Educated from whose standpoint.
JWs are better educated than most people, in what God values.
According to Jesus, "Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet will get a prophet’s reward, and whoever receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will get a righteous man’s reward." (Matthew 10:41)
Which reward are you seeking? The one from men? John 5:41-44

...and no, my answer has never ever been.. "because the faithful and discreet slave class tell me so".
Although, that would not necessarily be a wrong answer, in light of Matthew 24:45 - “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?
Also... Hebrews 13:17 . . .Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, so that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.
Would you agree, or no?

May I ask where you get your misinformation from, and why you so readily believe this misinformation?
Does that really seem to you like a person that "would rather have the capacity to study these things for myself"?
It doesn't sound that way to me, That sounds like a gullible person, interested only in what tickles the ear - in other words, what they want to hear.
Not so?

Who told you that I say that? Or that JWs say that? Is it your pastors, or do you read it on websites, or see it on youtube videos?
You can't believe everything you see and hear, and to get to study and know for yourself, you need to make sure your source is reliable.
Right now, your source isn't.


Again, poorly educated in what?
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 ; 2 Corinthians 3:5, 6 ; James 2:5
Why are you happy with such a position? Are you seeking favor with men, rather than God?
That's not Christian, is it.

Being educated at Theologian schools, and Universities is not a requirement of God, and a requirement for his approval.
He does not favor you because of that.
(Acts 4:13 13 Now when they beheld the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were men unlettered and ordinary, they got to wondering. And they began to recognize about them that they used to be with Jesus;

I take my teaching from scripture, which are from God, and his Christ.
It tells me these things in the book of John...
"Just as the Father has loved me, so I have loved you; remain in my love. If you observe my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love." (John 15:9, 10)

If Jesus was God, he would not need to observe the commandments of the father, to have his approval.
Why would you think that God-man would need to worship God?
Can you please explain, and help me to understand this view.
I'm just going to do more listening to you on this topic.

Perhaps you would care to explain the following then? Are these all lies?

Greg Stafford no longer a JW
Raymond Franz - Wikipedia
Case Study 29: Jehovah’s Witnesses | Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse
Inside the secretive world of the Jehovah's Witnesses and those fighting back.

Honestly, the problem here is that the NWT translation, likes its authors, is untrustworthy and indeed indicative of a publication that intentionally misleads its readers whilst claiming to be inspired as an authoritative translation. In truth, it is anything but and I think many are critical of the JW organization because they refuse to accept that what has been published is a lie...not a bible translation. I think that the Australian Royal Commission inquiry into the movement is quite damning and certainly does not shed a favorable light on it. For example, the intentional destruction of evidence to prevent it from being released to the royal commission is abominable...i cannot see how any Christian organization could possibly believe that is an acceptable practice. I think it highlights the level of deceit being put forward on a regular basis by this organization...so why then, would anyone trust its bible paraphrase?

Was not Ray Franz (referenced above) in charge of publications by watchtower? Wasn't this his area of responsibility? Do you honestly believe that Ray's disfellowship from the organization because he maintained a friendship with other members after his dismissal is Christian practice? (Jesus associated with tax collectors and Samaritans)

On March 18, 1981 Franz' employer in Alabama submitted a letter of disassociation from Jehovah's Witnesses. The September 15, 1981 issue of The Watchtower announced a change of policy on disassociation, directing that those who formally withdrew from the group were to be shunned by Witnesses in the same manner as those who have been disfellowshipped.[25] Franz, who continued to socialize with his employer, was summoned to a judicial hearing on November 25 and disfellowshipped for disobeying the edict.[2][26][27] Determined to present his point of view, not only with respect to his having been disfellowshipped, but with respect to broader doctrinal issues, in 1982 he sent Heather and Gary Botting proofs of his book Crisis of Conscience so that they could chronicle the more widespread discord within the Watch Tower Society.​

 

[nPeace]

Perhaps you would care to explain the following then? Are these all lies?

Greg Stanton - Wikipedia
Raymond Franz - Wikipedia
Case Study 29: Jehovah’s Witnesses | Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse
Inside the secretive world of the Jehovah's Witnesses and those fighting back.

Honestly, the problem here is that the NWT translation, likes its authors, is untrustworthy and indeed indicative of a publication that intentionally misleads its readers whilst claiming to be inspired as an authoritative translation. In truth, it is anything but and I think many are critical of the JW organization because they refuse to accept that what has been published is a lie...not a bible translation. I think that the Australian Royal Commission inquiry into the movement is quite damning and certainly does not shed a favorable light on it. For example, the intentional destruction of evidence to prevent it from being released to the royal commission is abominable...i cannot see how any Christian organization could possibly believe that is an acceptable practice. I think it highlights the level of deceit being put forward on a regular basis by this organization...so why then, would anyone trust its bible paraphrase?

Was not Ray Franz (referenced above) in charge of publications by watchtower? Wasn't this his area of responsibility? Do you honestly believe that Ray's disfellowship from the organization because he maintained a friendship with other members after his dismissal is Christian practice? (Jesus associated with tax collectors and Samaritans)

On March 18, 1981 Franz' employer in Alabama submitted a letter of disassociation from Jehovah's Witnesses. The September 15, 1981 issue of The Watchtower announced a change of policy on disassociation, directing that those who formally withdrew from the group were to be shunned by Witnesses in the same manner as those who have been disfellowshipped.[25] Franz, who continued to socialize with his employer, was summoned to a judicial hearing on November 25 and disfellowshipped for disobeying the edict.[2][26][27] Determined to present his point of view, not only with respect to his having been disfellowshipped, but with respect to broader doctrinal issues, in 1982 he sent Heather and Gary Botting proofs of his book Crisis of Conscience so that they could chronicle the more widespread discord within the Watch Tower Society.​

Sorry. I don't listen to apostates who knew the truth,
If you are sure of your source, but can't say why, then that is a clear indication that you are not sure, and you can easily say so.

If you want to know about us, you can simply ask, "Does JWs... Or, Do JWs... so so so? and I will answer you, but telling me to go listen to lies, is actually inviting me to join you.
Is that your mission? Do you go around looking for JWs to do that?
Is that not what the Pharisees did?
(Matthew 23:15) “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Gehenna twice as much so as yourselves. . .

You seem to spend more time talking about these things that people say, than you do the scriptures.
Only recently, someone (not a JW) mentioned the fact that religious people hide, when JWs go door to door..

Why are you so eager to spread information you cannot even back up with any certainty, rather than backup what you say from scripture?
JWs give people the opportunity to do so, but they run and hide. Why? What are you afraid of? The truth?

It seems you don't want to discuss the Bible.
I gave you an opportunity to do so.
If you are more interested in spreading misinformation about JWs though, feel free to do so, but I won't be helping you by giving you dialogue.
It's clear you are not interested in discussing anything I say..
So you don't need my permission to preach your sermon... of misinformation.
The floor... or the pulpit is all yours.

If you change your mind though, and want to discuss scriptures... or even get the truth about JWs, we are here, and can answer thos questions, and discuss scripture.
That way, I think you would be studying for yourself.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

How can you say you don't listen to apostates?

Is a government court (The Australian Royal Commission) that investigated these cases of child sexual abuse in the JW movement in Australia something you would ignore? Are you saying you believe that was falsified? That is an incredible claim from naivety!

Honestly, can someone genuinely be considered a Christian who intentionally destroys court evidence to cover up this kind of stuff?

I'm sorry but I think any group, be it religious or otherwise must be accountable. A number of organisations over the years have been caught out like this...the problem here is, the organisation we are talking about claims to its members that doctrine is given directly to the "faithful and discreet slave class" directly by God!

These are the very same faithful and discreet slave class who blatantly lied to the Australian Royal Commission and destroyed evidence to cover up the entire affair.

It has been published in the Royal Commission document that there are as many as 1000 cases of this kind of abuse and cover up within Australia alone.

That is incredibly worrying...and the practise of not sending this to the authorities, choosing instead to attempt to deal with it internally, is abhorrent. No one has the right to deny a child due process and protection from this kind of stuff.

You can naively preach "apostacy" all you like, however, that will just alienate your world view even more given the evidence I have provided here.

It's sad that you will not, and in fact cannot for fear of retribution, even read outside of the watchtower publications.

Sure people make mistakes, but to then intentionally try to cover it up is wrong.

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In answer to your question about "the man-god" worshipping His Father in Heaven...

It is probably offtopic to this thread i think, but since you asked, I am happy to discuss my own trinitarian understanding of this doctrine with you.

Let me just preface my discussion below by correcting a false interpretation of the scriptures in your statement...Jesus was God-man not man-god. To call him man-god is i think pushing the doctrine of polytheism or even worse, another Baal...and even within your own church movement, that is heresy!

So here is what i believe:

1. Lucifer rebelled against the Mighty God in heaven and was cast out of heaven to this earth, along with 1/3 of the angels in heaven who aligned themselves with him.

2. Due to the conflict in heaven, i believe God was left with no alternative but to prove his innocence of the charges Lucifer laid before the heavenly council...that God was not a God of love.

it may well have been that the rebellion by Lucifer was specifically directed at the creation of this earth and therefore that became the battleground for proving or disproving Gods love. First was the test of free will...it must be left to man to make his own choices. God allowed man to be tempted. When man failed the test, God could have simply destroyed all his creation here and started again, however, then Lucifers immediate claim would have been that God is unjust and unforgiving. These are not qualities of love.

3. After the fall of Adam and Eve, a rescue plan was set in motion by God... a plan of salvation. This plan would see the serpent bite the heal of Eve's offspring and her offspring would crush the head of the serpent.

4. God himself fulfills the promise given to Adam and Eve in John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us. We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

God, our creator, became incarnate...he humbled himself to that of his own creation and put himself at the mercy of this creation. He was rejected, tortured, and died for the sins of his creation...only a perfect being who is without sin, and who has the power to forgive sins, can do this.
Contrary to the absolute rubbish your church teaches...The Mighty God the supreme creator of the universe DOES NOT DELEGATE His authority to anyone!!! Isaiah chapters 45 through 50 are absolutely irrefutable on this truth!

5. As a human being, having humbled Himself, Jesus was nothing more than a mere man...he had to make the ultimate choice to never use his own authority as a God-man . Therefore, Jesus relied entirely on his relationship with his Father in heaven for any of the miracles he performed on earth...that is no different to the actions of the OT prophets and the disciples and apostles in the way they performed miracles.
He could have at any moment given up and demanded 10,000x10,000 of his angels to immediately come to his rescue and put a stop to all of this...Lucifer had already long since proven to be a liar and of pure selfishness and evil. Our creator could have easily used that as adequite evidence for ending all of this...but he didnt...he suffered the ultimate humility that one can possibly suffer in that an innocent God-man should allow his own creation, at the behest of his accuser in heaven (Lucifer), to torture and then to crucify him on the cross.

6. The God-man, after dying for the sins of his own creation, is then elevated back to his former glory...he is now exalted and the charge made against him by Lucifer lies in ruins! God the Son, will never lose those scars he received at the hands of his own creation. Those scars are a permanent reminder of what has happened. That part of the incarnation is permanent!

Now that God has died for His own creation and at the hands of His own creation, the verdict in the heavenly court is now beyond any doubt...God truly is - Love!

This is the entire point of the plan of salvation that JW's and other nontrinitarians simply do not comprehend. They simply do not understand that what makes the plan of salvation so significant is that the Mighty God himself, the creator of the entire universe, humbled himself, was born a child, was raised to adulthood, and then suffered terribly at the hands of His own creation.


The real key to understanding the trinity comes in what follows after the crucifixion and resurrection of our Christ...this is why this doctrine is so wonderful and absolute truth...

yes the Creator of the universe humbles Himself to that of a mere man, and dies for the sins of his own creation...we all know that...but what is really special is this:


Sinful man, undeserving of any grace, may now come boldly before the throne clothed in a cloak of righteousness, and be forgiven by the very same person we crucified!

satan says,

"hey God, next to come through the door way into the throne room is that sinful beast of a human being called Adam Edgar...he deserves death according to the Law"

Jesus, God...the one who sits in the midst of the throne, calls a judicial court recess, quickly dashes outside and throws goat skins of righteousness around Adam Edgar and dashes back inside reconvening the court.

Adam Edgar walks through the door, and boldly strides up the throne awaiting the decision...its the very same trickery Jacob performed on his father Isaaac...

Now seated back on the throne, God says to Satan

"what sinner?"

Satan says, "that man standing right in front of you...he is an imposter cant you see? Are you blind man"

God smiling says, "I dont see anyone who has sinned in standing front of me. However I do see a righteous person...yeah sure his voice sounds like the voice of Jacob, but the body is the body of my firstborn and therefore i give my blessing to Him"

Satans eyes open and his jaw drops...he is flabbergasted by the response. Meanwhile, the 24 elders in the court snicker amongst themselves...

It is truly unfortunate that non-trinitarians miss the mind-blowing extent to which the creator of our universe has gone in order to redeem us!