Jesus: 1+1=3?

[Neo Deist]

On my trip from Southern Baptist to Modern Deist, I often look at Bible stories that I took for granted. More times than not, most of us don't really know the Bible front to back, and just accept what our priest/pastor teach. This is a verse and scenario that I have come across and just can't seem to figure out the math behind it:

Matthew 12:40 - [NASB] for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Christians recognize the whole crucifixion-resurrection thing as Good Friday to Easter Sunday morning. However, that is only two nights (Friday & Saturday) spent in the tomb, not three. That fails to fulfill the "prophecy" of Matthew 12:40. For Jesus to fulfill the prophecy, he would have to spend Sunday night in the tomb as well, making Monday "Easter." Hmmm...

Was the author of the Book of Matthew wrong? Could he not count? Fuzzy math? Did Jesus rise early because he was tired of being in the tomb? Was it all a sham?

 

[Kolibri]

The Jew's day ran from sundown to sundown. Jesus died and was entombed on Nisan 14th and was resurrected sometime after Nisan 16th began. So he was entombed for parts of 3 days.


*** w96 5/15 p. 28 Jonah Learns About Jehovah’s Mercy ***
When scribes and Pharisees asked Jesus Christ for a sign, he said: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.” Jesus added: “For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” (Matthew 12:38-40) Jewish days began at sundown. Christ died on Friday afternoon, Nisan 14, 33 C.E. His body was placed in a tomb before sunset of that day. Nisan 15 began that evening and ran until sundown of Saturday, the seventh and last day of the week. At that time Nisan 16 began and ran its course until sunset of what we call Sunday. Consequently, Jesus was dead and in the tomb for at least a period of time on Nisan 14, was entombed throughout the entire day of Nisan 15, and spent the nighttime hours of Nisan 16 in the tomb. When certain women came to the tomb on Sunday morning, he had already been resurrected.—Matthew 27:57-61; 28:1-7.

*** it-1 p. 593 Day ***
There are times when the Hebrews used ‘day and night’ to mean only a portion of a solar day of 24 hours. For example, 1 Kings 12:5, 12 tells of Rehoboam’s asking Jeroboam and the Israelites to “go away for three days” and then return to him. That he did not mean three full 24-hour days but, rather, a portion of each of three days is seen by the fact that the people came back to him “on the third day.” At Matthew 12:40 the same meaning is given to the “three days and three nights” of Jesus’ stay in Sheol. As the record shows, he was raised to life on “the third day.” The Jewish priests clearly understood this to be the meaning of Jesus’ words, since, in their effort to block his resurrection, they quoted Jesus as saying: “After three days I am to be raised up,” and then they requested Pilate to issue a command for “the grave to be made secure until the third day.”—Mt 27:62-66; 28:1-6; note other examples in Ge 42:17, 18; Es 4:16; 5:1.

 

[Neo Deist]

The Jew's day ran from sundown to sundown. Jesus died and was entombed on Nisan 14th and was resurrected sometime after Nisan 16th began. So he was interred for parts of 3 days.

I am aware of all of that. However, it still does not add up and fullfill Matthew 12:40 of 3 days + 3 nights. It does not say "part of three days" or "a fraction of the nights." It very clearly says 3 days and 3 nights. Friday afternoon to Sunday morning is only two nights, no matter how you try and spin it.

Sundown Friday
Sundown Saturday
Resurrection on Sunday morning, not sundown on Sunday

 

[Kolibri]

I am aware of all of that. However, it still does not add up and fullfill Matthew 12:40 of 3 days + 3 nights. It does not say "part of three days" or "a fraction of the nights." It very clearly says 3 days and 3 nights. Friday afternoon to Sunday morning is only two nights, no matter how you try and spin it.

Sundown Friday
Sundown Saturday
Resurrection on Sunday morning, not sundown on Sunday

No spin. If you look up the accounts in Genesis 42:17,18; 1 Kings 12:5,12; and especially Esther 4:16; 5:1 you'll note that Matthew was not alone in this way of using the terms "day" and "day and night" to mean a part of a day. Your math is not wrong. Your understanding of the idiom is in error.

 

[Amleth]

Please consider a reply from a RF newb...

To extract meaning from the scriptures of all early western religions (from Gilgamesh to Matthew and far beyond) it must be understood that the language used is based on astronomical allegory. Literal interpretations are sure to muddy the waters.

 

[viole]

On my trip from Southern Baptist to Modern Deist, I often look at Bible stories that I took for granted. More times than not, most of us don't really know the Bible front to back, and just accept what our priest/pastor teach. This is a verse and scenario that I have come across and just can't seem to figure out the math behind it:

Matthew 12:40 - [NASB] for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Christians recognize the whole crucifixion-resurrection thing as Good Friday to Easter Sunday morning. However, that is only two nights (Friday & Saturday) spent in the tomb, not three. That fails to fulfill the "prophecy" of Matthew 12:40. For Jesus to fulfill the prophecy, he would have to spend Sunday night in the tomb as well, making Monday "Easter." Hmmm...

Was the author of the Book of Matthew wrong? Could he not count? Fuzzy math? Did Jesus rise early because he was tired of being in the tomb? Was it all a sham?

Well, it depends.

My travel agent would count it as three days (and two nights). So, maybe travel agents at the time were counting in the same way, making the prophecy still a live option.

Many things could be the same. For instance making weekends looking longer than they really are. A possible exception is that probably Jesus did not say then: thanks God it's Friday. Or maybe He did, who knows?

Ciao

- viole

 

[1robin]

Well, it depends.

My travel agent would count it as three days (and two nights). So, maybe travel agents at the time were counting in the same way, making the prophecy still a live option.

Many things could be the same. For instance making weekends looking longer than they really are. A possible exception is that probably Jesus did not say then: thanks God it's Friday. Or maybe He did, who knows?

Ciao

- viole

Is your travel agent a biblical author or even Jewish? There are very well established ways to use proper and consistent exegesis in the bible. This one does not even require any fuzzy technicalities just well known and well explained Hebrew customary dating methods instead of travel agent methodology.

Here is just one in thousands of sites that give more detail than I can post.
How long was Jesus dead in the tomb? | Jesus 3 days and nights in the tomb

 

[Neo Deist]

There are very well established ways to use proper and consistent exegesis in the bible. This one does not even require any fuzzy technicalities just well known and well explained Hebrew customary dating methods instead of travel agent methodology.

I am well aware of Jewish dating methods and how days are calculated. That does not change the fact that there were not enough nights to fulfill Matthew 12:40. According to Christian tradition, Jesus was crucified on Friday afternoon. That means he spent Friday night and Saturday night in the tomb, before rising on Sunday morning. Sundown on Thursday night going into Friday has absolutely nothing to do with it, no matter how hard people try and spin it.

Think about this scenario...

You get arrested on Friday afternoon and taken to jail. The intake officer tells you that the magistrate is out of town until Monday morning, and you won't be able to post bail until then. How many nights do you spend in jail? Three...

Arrested Friday afternoon

Friday night in jail
Saturday night in jail
Sunday night in jail

Post bail on Monday and get out

Applying that scenario to Matthew 12:40 means that either Jesus had to be crucified on Thursday, not Friday, or that he had to rise on Monday, not Sunday. That or the author of Matthew was wrong (which would not surprise me being a hearsay story).

 

[1robin]

I am well aware of Jewish dating methods and how days are calculated. That does not change the fact that there were not enough nights to fulfill Matthew 12:40. According to Christian tradition, Jesus was crucified on Friday afternoon. That means he spent Friday night and Saturday night in the tomb, before rising on Sunday morning. Sundown on Thursday night going into Friday has absolutely nothing to do with it, no matter how hard people try and spin it.

Think about this scenario...

You get arrested on Friday afternoon and taken to jail. The intake officer tells you that the magistrate is out of town until Monday morning, and you won't be able to post bail until then. How many nights do you spend in jail? Three...

Arrested Friday afternoon

Friday night in jail
Saturday night in jail
Sunday night in jail

Post bail on Monday and get out

Applying that scenario to Matthew 12:40 means that either Jesus had to be crucified on Thursday, not Friday, or that he had to rise on Monday, not Sunday. That or the author of Matthew was wrong (which would not surprise me being a hearsay story).

It is not the issue whether three literal nights existed with Christ entombed. Running into surface discrepancies are the primary means I grew to trust the bible. I found in every circumstance my simplistic assumptions caused the surface discrepancy and the bibles elegant and consistent way of resolving them far to sophisticated for human authorship. I can see you are making the same mistake. Your taking bibles verses out of their proper exegetical context and force fitting them into your own. Proper biblical interpretation allows the bible to define it's own definition and language use. It gets a little complex because at least 3 languages and countless common linguistic styles are used and all have unique meanings. If the bible consistently defines parts of a day as considered a day and night in the same contexts then they must be allowed to be such. The bible defines it's own expressions and they are not to be taken out of their context and compared with our going to jail. These things if allowed as the justly should be resolve almost every hurdle I have ever been given in the bible. There is another issue that is the primary necessity. You must show using proper scholarship that the time frame of Jonah was what the "sign" was a reference to. While there is little debate on whether the terminology allows for Jesus to fulfill this there is much debate on whether that was even the intent. Many scholars suggest that only a falling and rising event was predicted. I do not even think Mathew can be considered a prophecy anyway, it was written after the fact. It would not even be a case whether Christ a literal three days and nights occurred, it would be he case Mathew was too stupid to invent a prophecy with hindsight and I do not find that justifiable.

 

[Neo Deist]

Your taking bibles verses out of their proper exegetical context and force fitting them into your own. Proper biblical interpretation allows the bible to define it's own definition and language use. It gets a little complex because at least 3 languages and countless common linguistic styles are used and all have unique meanings.

Christians have been taking verses out of context and applying them to their beliefs for centuries.

People have a tendency to see, hear, or read things with a biased opinion. They "see what they want to see." If you believe the Bible to be inerrant and 100% literal, then your arguments will support that position, even if shown evidence to the contrary. When cornered, you try and spin the facts or details to make it fit your views.

In psychology we call that "confirmation bias."

 

[1robin]

Christians have been taking verses out of context and applying them to their beliefs for centuries.

People have a tendency to see, hear, or read things with a biased opinion. They "see what they want to see." If you believe the Bible to be inerrant and 100% literal, then your arguments will support that position, even if shown evidence to the contrary. When cornered, you try and spin the facts or details to make it fit your views.

In psychology we call that "confirmation bias."

I agree to all of this but it is not an argument. Because you mention some hypothetical failure somewhere in the universe does not mean one occurred in the explanation I have give. I know people see things as the wish and it can by many names. That is why over the course of thousands of years concrete methods are tried and tested by tens of thousand of people and the very best survive scrutiny. That is the best possible methodology humanity can adopt and my explanation passes every test of proper exegesis and hermeneutics. I think the position that contradicts them the one with conformational bias.

 

[Ouroboros]

My travel agent would count it as three days (and two nights). So, maybe travel agents at the time were counting in the same way, making the prophecy still a live option.

It would make sense if the prophecy had said "Three days and night", which leaves more wiggle room for such interpretations. But it says specifically, three days and three nights, as if it was important to point out that it wasn't only 3 of the daytime phases of 24 hours, but also 3 of the nighttime phases of the 24 hours, which means at minimum 72 hours. Idioms like "day and night" is vague and can be used to mean many things, but "5 days and 6 nights" would be a specific piece of information and not so vague.

 

[viole]

It would make sense if the prophecy had said "Three days and night", which leaves more wiggle room for such interpretations. But it says specifically, three days and three nights, as if it was important to point out that it wasn't only 3 of the daytime phases of 24 hours, but also 3 of the nighttime phases of the 24 hours, which means at minimum 72 hours. Idioms like "day and night" is vague and can be used to mean many things, but "5 days and 6 nights" would be a specific piece of information and not so vague.

Well, what can I say? Whoever wrote that did not pay attention.

After all, if a day is like 1000 years for the Lord, then a certain inaccuracy of Lord's way of measuring time can be expected

Ciao

- viole

 

[Ouroboros]

The Jew's day ran from sundown to sundown. Jesus died and was entombed on Nisan 14th and was resurrected sometime after Nisan 16th began. So he was entombed for parts of 3 days.

But the prophecy says 3 days and 3 nights, not 3 days only or 3 days and whatever nights. It's specific about the days, so why should the specificity of nights suddenly be figurative?

Put it this way, if "3 nights" doesn't really mean literally 3 nights, then why should "3 days" mean literally 3 days? They're in the same sentence.

It's like saying: The goose flew over my house and then exploded. To mean that the goose actually flew over my house for real, but it didn't explode. It just too a dump. It's bad form to mix metaphors mid-sentence without any obvious signs that it's done.

*** w96 5/15 p. 28 Jonah Learns About Jehovah’s Mercy ***
When scribes and Pharisees asked Jesus Christ for a sign, he said: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah the prophet.” Jesus added: “For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” (Matthew 12:38-40) Jewish days began at sundown. Christ died on Friday afternoon, Nisan 14, 33 C.E. His body was placed in a tomb before sunset of that day. Nisan 15 began that evening and ran until sundown of Saturday, the seventh and last day of the week. At that time Nisan 16 began and ran its course until sunset of what we call Sunday. Consequently, Jesus was dead and in the tomb for at least a period of time on Nisan 14, was entombed throughout the entire day of Nisan 15, and spent the nighttime hours of Nisan 16 in the tomb. When certain women came to the tomb on Sunday morning, he had already been resurrected.—Matthew 27:57-61; 28:1-7.

Read again the highlighted part. That part is only metaphorical, but the "three days" just before it are not?

*** it-1 p. 593 Day ***
There are times when the Hebrews used ‘day and night’ to mean only a portion of a solar day of 24 hours. For example, 1 Kings 12:5, 12 tells of Rehoboam’s asking Jeroboam and the Israelites to “go away for three days” and then return to him. That he did not mean three full 24-hour days but, rather, a portion of each of three days is seen by the fact that the people came back to him “on the third day.” At Matthew 12:40 the same meaning is given to the “three days and three nights” of Jesus’ stay in Sheol. As the record shows, he was raised to life on “the third day.” The Jewish priests clearly understood this to be the meaning of Jesus’ words, since, in their effort to block his resurrection, they quoted Jesus as saying: “After three days I am to be raised up,” and then they requested Pilate to issue a command for “the grave to be made secure until the third day.”—Mt 27:62-66; 28:1-6; note other examples in Ge 42:17, 18; Es 4:16; 5:1.

Your examples only say "three days", not "three nights". Three days is a specific length of time, but three nights is not? If the authors really wanted to leave it up for interpretation to 2 or 3 nights, then wouldn't "three days and nights" have been more indicative of this? Why did the author specifically say "three nights"?

 

[Ouroboros]

Well, what can I say? Whoever wrote that did not pay attention.

Most likely. And probably because most of it came from second and third hand. The details can't be trusted. Literal interpretation of the scriptures kills the spirit. "The letters kill, but he spirit gives life."

After all, if a day is like 1000 years for the Lord, then a certain inaccuracy of Lord's way of measuring time can be expected

The Watchmakers watch was a bit off.

 

[Ouroboros]

Christians have been taking verses out of context and applying them to their beliefs for centuries.

People do this with every religion, belief, ideology. We get stuck in ideas that create our framework of understanding life, and these ideas are "sticky". They tend to want to stay, unchanged, and when challenged, we'll defend them with everything we can. This is actually not only a bad thing, but can be good as well, for instance in science when the science is right. Sticking around, defended when some nutjobs want to change a theory to be something it isn't. We all do it. Sticking to our guns.

People have a tendency to see, hear, or read things with a biased opinion. They "see what they want to see."

Yes, we do. It's a cornerstone of our human condition. It has saved us from wild animals, traps, cliffs, and many other things in the past. So it's not all bad.

If you believe the Bible to be inerrant and 100% literal, then your arguments will support that position, even if shown evidence to the contrary. When cornered, you try and spin the facts or details to make it fit your views.

I remember when I was a literalist a long time ago. I read a passage in the Bible that's supposed to be a prophecy of Jesus, or whatever it was, and the first part of the verse was something our church used a lot (literally). But then I realized, the second half... we didn't really read or interpret that part literally but more figuratively. Hmm... It was a feeling I never could shake. It stuck with me. The realization that we didn't read everything literal.

In psychology we call that "confirmation bias."

Yup. And it's a two-edged sword. It can also be a good thing, in some cases.