Jesus a Religious Reformer, or Transformer?

[Windwalker]

Was Jesus a religious reformer, trying to get everyone back to a fundamentalist doctrine of strict legal observances, fixing what was corrupted in the system? Was he like Martin Luther, seeking to fix the Catholic Church? Or was he a religious transformer? Was he instead not about correcting the error of the religious in their practice to a former purity, but about elevating the understanding of religious practices to their essential message, one of transforming an inner awareness of truth that transcends the religion itself? Was his desire to teach an awareness that seeks to transform religious observance to an awakened heart, mind, and soul, beyond the rules and regulations of religious tradition?

My understanding of Jesus is the latter. What are others thoughts?

 

[Benoni]

Was Jesus a religious reformer, trying to get everyone back to a fundamentalist doctrine of strict legal observances, fixing what was corrupted in the system? Was he like Martin Luther, seeking to fix the Catholic Church? Or was he a religious transformer? Was he instead not about correcting the error of the religious in their practice to a former purity, but about elevating the understanding of religious practices to their essential message, one of transforming an inner awareness of truth that transcends the religion itself? Was his desire to teach an awareness that seeks to transform religious observance to an awakened heart, mind, and soul, beyond the rules and regulations of religious tradition?

My understanding of Jesus is the latter. What are others thoughts?

I agree with you to a point. I see Him as a spiritual transformer not a religious transformer. The religion of His day He was totally apposed to.. he brought life to the world and carnal man made a religion of it because they saw in part.

 

[Windwalker]

I agree with you to a point. I see Him as a spiritual transformer not a religious transformer. The religion of His day He was totally apposed to.. he brought life to the world and carnal man made a religion of it because they saw in part.

I see your point. In a sense, a religious transformation is to make it spiritual. I think that was his point ultimately. Move beyond religion. Religion has its function to transmit truth, the spiritual awakens that and enlivens it.

 

[Me Myself]

Robots in disguise.

 

[Benoni]

I see your point. In a sense, a religious transformation is to make it spiritual. I think that was his point ultimately. Move beyond religion. Religion has its function to transmit truth, the spiritual awakens that and enlivens it.

Religion is a vessel that limits God to religious wall and controls and bias and controls the spiritual sight.

I like the word "see" in the Greek.


I understand what religion tries to tell (NT:991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from) or (NT:4648 a watching from a distance); they claim you will only see the salvation of God; but turn on your spiritually understand and stop hearing what tradition is saying. The Jew’s are traditionalist; Christians should be mature spiritual sons with ears to hear and eyes to see beyond the carnal literal.

See: with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable

See: Strong’s NT:3700

optanomai (op-tan'-om-ahee); a (middle voice) prolonged form of the primary (middle voice) optomai (op'-tom-ahee); which is used for it in certain tenses; and both as alternate of NT:3708; to gaze (i.e. with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable; and thus differing from NT:991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from NT:1492, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision; while NT:2300, and still more emphatically its intensive NT:2334, signifies an earnest but more continued inspection; and NT:4648 a watching from a distance):


KJV - appear, look, see, shewself.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Luke 3: 6 (Amp) And all mankind shall see (behold and [a]understand and at last acknowledge) the salvation of God (the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).

Luke 3 (msg)

A Baptism of Life-Change

1-6 In the fifteenth year of the rule of Caesar Tiberius—it was while Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea; Herod, ruler of Galilee; his brother Philip, ruler of Iturea and Trachonitis; Lysanias, ruler of Abilene; during the Chief-Priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas—John, Zachariah's son, out in the desert at the time, received a message from God. He went all through the country around the Jordan River preaching a baptism of life-change leading to forgiveness of sins, as described in the words of Isaiah the prophet:

Thunder in the desert!
"Prepare God's arrival!
Make the road smooth and straight!
Every ditch will be filled in,
Every bump smoothed out,
The detours straightened out,
All the ruts paved over.
Everyone will be there to see
The parade of God's salvation."

 

[psychoslice]

A man like Jesus was only showing us that we are all as ONE, that we are as he is, he became the so called Christ through his own inner Enlightenment, all he was say is that we are also the Christ when self realized. Jesus never said to go to a church, in fact he simple said don't sin no more, or take up your bed and walk, sin in this regard means don't see yourself as a carnal being, but see yourself as One in God.

 

[Benoni]

A man like Jesus was only showing us that we are all as ONE, that we are as he is, he became the so called Christ through his own inner Enlightenment, all he was say is that we are also the Christ when self realized. Jesus never said to go to a church, in fact he simple said don't sin no more, or take up your bed and walk, sin in this regard means don't see yourself as a carnal being, but see yourself as One in God.

Jesus is the son of God. We to ar sons of God but born under the curse of Adam which is sin and death. It is by the blood of Jesus He has reversed the curse of Adam and : Christ means anointed and yes we can have an anointing but we are not the Christ.

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)​

It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.​

​

​

1 Corinthians 15:22-24​

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2​

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=222For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.​

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

 

[Thana]

Religion is a vessel that limits God to religious wall and controls and bias and controls the spiritual sight.

I like the word "see" in the Greek.


I understand what religion tries to tell (NT:991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from) or (NT:4648 a watching from a distance); they claim you will only see the salvation of God; but turn on your spiritually understand and stop hearing what tradition is saying. The Jew’s are traditionalist; Christians should be mature spiritual sons with ears to hear and eyes to see beyond the carnal literal.

See: with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable

See: Strong’s NT:3700

optanomai (op-tan'-om-ahee); a (middle voice) prolonged form of the primary (middle voice) optomai (op'-tom-ahee); which is used for it in certain tenses; and both as alternate of NT:3708; to gaze (i.e. with wide-open eyes, as at something remarkable; and thus differing from NT:991, which denotes simply voluntary observation; and from NT:1492, which expresses merely mechanical, passive or casual vision; while NT:2300, and still more emphatically its intensive NT:2334, signifies an earnest but more continued inspection; and NT:4648 a watching from a distance):


KJV - appear, look, see, shewself.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

Luke 3: 6 (Amp) And all mankind shall see (behold and [a]understand and at last acknowledge) the salvation of God (the deliverance from eternal death decreed by God).

Luke 3 (msg)

A Baptism of Life-Change

1-6 In the fifteenth year of the rule of Caesar Tiberius—it was while Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea; Herod, ruler of Galilee; his brother Philip, ruler of Iturea and Trachonitis; Lysanias, ruler of Abilene; during the Chief-Priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas—John, Zachariah's son, out in the desert at the time, received a message from God. He went all through the country around the Jordan River preaching a baptism of life-change leading to forgiveness of sins, as described in the words of Isaiah the prophet:

Thunder in the desert!
"Prepare God's arrival!
Make the road smooth and straight!
Every ditch will be filled in,
Every bump smoothed out,
The detours straightened out,
All the ruts paved over.
Everyone will be there to see
The parade of God's salvation."

Awesome, Totally agree

 

[psychoslice]

Jesus is the son of God. We to ar sons of God but born under the curse of Adam which is sin and death. It is by the blood of Jesus He has reversed the curse of Adam and : Christ means anointed and yes we can have an anointing but we are not the Christ.

Romans 5:18-20 (Weymouth’s)
It follows then just as the result of a single transgression is a condemnation which to the whole race, so also is the result of a single degree of righteousness is a life giving acquittal which extends to the whole race. (19) for as thought the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were constituted as sinners, so also though the obedience of one, the mass of mankind will be constituted righteous. Now law was brought in later on so that the transgression might increase, but sin increased, grace is overflowed.​

1 Corinthians 15:22-24
http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=2
http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=222For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.​

You are too much into words of scripture, I see beyond words, i see the truth, the truth is that you are no higher or lower than the man Jesus, when you stop putting him on a pedestal you will see beyond the pedastal

 

[Benoni]

There is a difference between seeking that is is far greater then you, compared to being what you are seeking after. I am I pressing toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. I have not arrived.

Philippians 3:13-15 (King James Version)
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do,
forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things
which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any
thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

 

[Benoni]

You are too much into words of scripture, I see beyond words, i see the truth, the truth is that you are no higher or lower than the man Jesus, when you stop putting him on a pedestal you will see beyond the pedastal

If you see the truth then your truth is far too small for me. Truth is a progressive revelation to revelation.

 

[psychoslice]

There is a difference between seeking that is is far greater then you, compared to being what you are seeking after. I am I pressing toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. I have not arrived.

Philippians 3:13-15 (King James Version)
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do,
forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things
which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any
thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Drop the excuses and go for it boldly.

 

[Windwalker]

Religion is a vessel that limits God to religious wall and controls and bias and controls the spiritual sight.

It can limit God, yes. But it can also expose God to those not ready for sight. If it weren't for the truths carried in "lesser vehicles" (religion), would these truths be carried forward to those ready for them? I've struggled with that question. Yet, in the midst of a literal, reduced understanding, there are gems laying in wait for discovery, waiting for the sunlight to allow them to be seen. And that is the Mystery, it seems.

 

[psychoslice]

If you see the truth then your truth is far too small for me. Truth is a progressive revelation to revelation.

Truth is ever flowing, but are you in that flow, which is truth.

 

[Benoni]

It can limit God, yes. But it can also expose God to those not ready for sight. If it weren't for the truths carried in "lesser vehicles" (religion), would these truths be carried forward to those ready for them? I've struggled with that question. Yet, in the midst of a literal, reduced understanding, there are gems laying in wait for discovery, waiting for the sunlight to allow them to be seen. And that is the Mystery, it seems.

Yes Baby-lon is a golden cup in the hands of the Lord and God really uses religion. But it will truly limit you too.

Jeremiah 51:7 Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the
earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad.

There are many mysteries in the Bible and the deeper you go the more God will reveal them to you but as a religious group this vision controlled by man

 

[Benoni]

Truth is ever flowing, but are you in that flow, which is truth.

The flow is God's Spirit for only the Spirit of truth can lead and guide us into all truth. If you are after your own truth I am sure you will find it. But it will not be the hidden truth God's is revaling to His out called. It will be your vision.

 

[psychoslice]

The flow is God's Spirit for only the Spirit of truth can lead and guide us into all truth. If you are after your own truth I am sure you will find it. But it will not be the hidden truth God's is revaling to His out called. It will be your vision.

Yes it can only be your truth, that is your true SELF, there is only one SELF, there is only one truth.......call it Christ or whatever name, it doesn't matter.

The idea is not to get caught up in the past, that is scripture, you have to find your SELF, and no one can do that for you, not even the man Jesus. I have also been caught up in scripture, but it wasn't until i realized that the words killith, that I truly Awakened.

 

[Benoni]

Yes it can only be your truth, that is your true SELF, there is only one SELF, there is only one truth.......call it Christ or whatever name, it doesn't matter.

The idea is not to get caught up in the past, that is scripture, you have to find your SELF, and no one can do that for you, not even the man Jesus. I have also been caught up in scripture, but it wasn't until i realized that the words killith, that I truly Awakened.

Wrong..

God's Spiritual Word is not limited to the past, and it sure is not limited my my self.

It is the way which is a journey; truth which is unfolding; and the light .. the light of the world.

It does matter. You do not have eyes to see.

1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (Amp)
14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated

 

[roger1440]

Was Jesus a religious reformer, trying to get everyone back to a fundamentalist doctrine of strict legal observances, fixing what was corrupted in the system? Was he like Martin Luther, seeking to fix the Catholic Church? Or was he a religious transformer? Was he instead not about correcting the error of the religious in their practice to a former purity, but about elevating the understanding of religious practices to their essential message, one of transforming an inner awareness of truth that transcends the religion itself? Was his desire to teach an awareness that seeks to transform religious observance to an awakened heart, mind, and soul, beyond the rules and regulations of religious tradition?

My understanding of Jesus is the latter. What are others thoughts?

I don’t think Jesus fits any of those descriptions. What Jesus is or was is much simpler. Jesus is Israel.

 

[psychoslice]

Wrong..

God's Spiritual Word is not limited to the past, and it sure is not limited my my self.

It is the way which is a journey; truth which is unfolding; and the light .. the light of the world.

It does matter. You do not have eyes to see.

1 Corinthians 2:13-15 (Amp)
14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated

The trouble with you is you are blinded by the words, you will always resit the words and have no idea of what they are pointing to, you have to go beyond the words, if you can't well that's Ok, that is where you are, there is no race, if you eye's are on your true SELF the Christ, how can you no win.

This is one reason I left religion, it never allowed me to grow in spirit, it wasn't until after I left that I started to grow, I took up my bed and walked away from literal thinking, and walked into the true Being, the Christ, for some reason many get upset about this lol.